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Playability Podcast

Episode 2: Shogunate (Adrienne Ezell)

Run time: 15 minutes, 49 seconds

Episode recorded by Rebecca Strang.

Playability is produced by Mike Risley.

Transcript auto-generated by YouTube and edited by Rebecca Strang.

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00:00 Intro Music

00:08 Rebecca Strang
Hello and welcome to playability where we hold conversations at the crossroads of gameplay and accessibility. I'm your host Rebecca Strang and I'm joined today by Adrienne Ezell of Dreadful Games. We're going to be talking to her about accessibility, game designing, and her new game Shogunate. Welcome to the show, Adrienne!

00:26 Adrienne Ezell
Thanks, I'm glad to be here!

00:28 Rebecca Strang
Awesome! So, can you tell me a bit about Shogunate?

00:31 Adrienne Ezell
All right, sure. It is a social deduction game with a feudal Japanese theme. You are playing on teams essentially, but you have to figure out who's on your team, so that's where the social deduction comes into play. You are backing two of the people in the line of succession to be the next Shogun. So there's six leaders in the line and through taking actions, and watching what actions other people take, you're trying to figure out who they are to figure out who's essentially on your team so the two of you can get your leaders to victory.

01:06 Rebecca Strang
Awesome and how did you come up with the theme for the game?

01:09 Adrienne Ezell
So the theme just really resonated with me. The… One of the core mechanics is the hatamoto - which I think directly translates to “one that supports the Shogun” - they're the active player for the rounds. They're essentially like the first player but they don't take any actions - they just choose when other people take theirs. I found that to be a really good way to kind of welcome people to social reduction that don't necessarily like the table talk and the lying or the, you know, trying to obfuscate. And so I felt like this lent itself really well to intrigue and secretive, you know, dealings and I really wanted to go for a theme that wasn't, you know,
medieval Europe… we've seen that over and over and we've had a lot of games that are nothing but white guys, so this gave me the opportunity to welcome and definitely -- unfortunately it is all binary gendered but I got to bring in women and have essentially, er you know, and very strong women, and kind of, you know, look into a genre that's not covered as much I suppose.

02:18 Rebecca Strang
Sure, so what was the design and development path like for you? I know… I was at Geekway this year so I was able to get a copy of your game as an attendee there and… what was the process like going through designing and developing and getting this game to where it is now existing in our hands?

02:34 Adrienne Ezell
Oh, wow, so it was it was a long road. My original game had player elimination and everybody only had one clan that they were backing and it was quite possible to be eliminated on the first move of the first round which definitely had some feel bads associated with it. 

02:51 Rebecca Strang
Sure.

02:52 Adrienne Ezell
But it played a lot faster so it was funny…  I had that the camps were kind of 50/50 on “No leave it in” and “No let's take it out” but just through working with some really good developers at Action Phase, Travis Chance and Nick Little, I was able to kind of mold this into something that's a much, much better game. And that's definitely advice I would give to any designer out there is make sure you spend time on development and make sure you get outside opinions. This game wouldn't exist at all without their development. They made it 200 times better and I was happy for the input.

03:28 Rebecca Strang
Awesome, yeah, play testing and getting some feedback on development is definitely an important part of a games evolution. 

03:36 Adrienne Ezell
Definitely and it's funny that you can't really rely on play testing yourself a lot like -- and I don't mean you playing the game, I mean you witnessing the play tests,

03:45 Rebecca Strang
Sure.

03:45 Adrienne Ezell
Because enough social mores are in place that are going to have people tell you that “this is great” and “this is fine” that, you know, and Shogunate it's not the only game I’ve designed, it's the only one that's currently, you know, released, but the feedback you get oftentimes is what you want to hear and I don't know if it's just the amazing social acuity of the people that are playing this game or, you know, if opinions really are that varied… Because it's the things that people in the industry tell you about making a product will be so contraindicated by the things your playtesters tell you they love about the game and it's things that you usually yourself loves about the game so it's so important to kind of move beyond that and keep an open mind. That's really what I did with Shogunate and I'm so glad I did. It's my first retail release and I'm so far having a really, really good time with it. I got to do a signing at Origins and I'll be a Gen Con - so awesome.

04:42 Rebecca Strang
Well, congratulations with all of that! So here at Playability we like to focus on talking about accessibility in gaming so first, what does accessibility mean to you?

04:52 Adrienne Ezell
I think accessibility is more of the trappings of the game. We're not talking about mechanics, we're not talking about theme all the time - sometimes we are – but accessibility for me and the kind of the way I approach it is that, you know, well, language independence… not because it's gonna cost less later to translate it. but because everybody doesn't have the same reading level, everybody doesn't play with the same kind of groups, so one of the things with Shogunate is all of the actions have pictograms that show what the action is so we've got easy to read and easy to understand actions… if you're from a privileged enough background to have had access to an, you know, education, which not everybody does and that's the thing we have to realize. All the colors and art used is tested for colorblind accessibility and low vision, so there's high contrast on all of the parts that need to be identifiable at a glance; so icons are relied heavily on for the same reason; and then, you know, there's the art itself… illustrations, you know, we've got a skew toward women - it's not not 50/50 - and just showing strong women, you know, it’s being purposeful in your portrayal of the characters in your art, you know, is something that we need to pay attention to as a community.

06:18 Rebecca Strang
Definitely, and so, what are some decisions… I know you talked a bit about the icons and making sure that the game was colorblind accessible… so, what are some decisions that you may have initially had in the game that you decided to cut out, potentially because of accessibility issues?

06:35 Adrienne Ezell
Well, I consider myself very fortunate to have a friend group that does deal with colorblind, you know not really drawbacks, but I guess in in gaming it really is. You know I, I exist in a game group where five of the six players want to be yellow because it's the one they can see and that's unheard of. So I was very fortunate to be developing this game in, you know, in this group of people so I didn't have to cut anything from this game specifically, but definitely in my previous designs I did have to do that and it was a learning experience and it was fantastic. I actually have a game with publishers right now that was an exercise on creating a set collection game based on color and pattern that I've designed as an exercise in colorblind and low-vision accessibility and it turned into a real game that, you know, publishers are looking at publishing.

07:36 Rebecca Strang
That's awesome and you bring up a great point with… you have a group that has… that you can test things with and they can give you the feedback you're looking for as far as accessibility. It's important when you're designing a game and looking for feedback to actually seek out those different perspectives and to get feedback from people who are going to be using the game and have the ability to tell you “yes this works, yes this doesn't.” Do you have any feedback or advice for anyone designing or developing games on how you can approach people with getting play testing done?

08:12 Adrienne Ezell
Be earnest be honest and approach with hat in hand. I think when you tell somebody that you need help, you recognize that you need help… you need to come at that from a place of “I don't know the answer, I don't have preconceived notions, I legitimately you want help” and I don't think anybody's ever going to turn you away. And you may not you may not have anybody, like you said, in your immediate friend group but somebody knows somebody. Talk about it earnestly, you know and.. it's hard for us as humans, not even just game designers, but as humans to try to approach something we don't have a frame of reference for. I'm scared messing up, we're scared of saying the wrong thing, we're scared of insulting somebody that we mean no offense toward and that sometimes makes us shut down and let that, you know, that the fear of, you know, embarrassment or hurting somebody else kind of keep us kind of caged and in our little corner and we just do what we're you know comfortable with. That's why we have so many games with men and sheep on them. I mean, that's the honest truth… you do what you know. And so my biggest suggestion, my, you know, I think most important suggestion I could give any designer or advice would be to expand that frame of reference, genuinely learn the things you need to know to be, you know, a contributing member of the community.

09:40 Rebecca Strang
What has your experience been like… I know Geekway has a prototype event where designers can get things played… are there any other conventions or sources that you're aware of, have experience with, that have been helpful and meaningful to you that other people might look into?

09:57 Adrienne Ezell
Sure, I would recommend looking into the Indie Game Alliance: they have play testing services… you can join up as a member and they will represent you at conventions that you can't go to. There are so, so many now… I am eating ramen, but I've been to six in the last eight weeks. I'm really tired! So there are definitely avenues that you can get to these things that you can't be at in person and that's for playtesting and, you know, retail sales and just kind of getting your name out there. I would ask at your local game store if they mind if you bring by prototypes, you know, that's… that's been a fantastic outlet for me. I've made lifelong friends -- I'm actually going to Gen Con with all of them in a few weeks and, you know, we just sit down and play. And don't neglect other designers! Like the some of the big names in the industry have… have played some of my games and do you know why they played some of my games? Because I played some of theirs that that aren't published yet -- I mean we're talking Sharpie on pieces of paper… these aren't even cardstock. And so, it's definitely a give before you take, but being open and mentioning “oh yeah, hey, I have this with me” and that's… I think that's really an important thing to like…  I'm not really a purse person, but at all these cons I've been to I found that the biggest boon to me has been carrying around some of my smaller prototypes in my bag because then when somebody sits down and says they have time and “oh hey what are you working on?”, which you know as a game designer that's… it's kind of like, you know, “what did you do today at work today?”, you know the question will definitely be asked. You can be like “oh yeah, I'm working on this thing” so when they say “oh, that sounds kind of cool” you're like “I have it in my bag would you like to play it?” and you're gonna get “yes” like 70% of the time. It's… it's absolutely worked for me and again now I have friends that I’m like “I own like
five of your games this is super cool”, you know. And they'll sit there and and tell you what they liked and what they didn't like and what they think works and what doesn't. And it's, I mean, the experience is just amazing and I've had actually a much better time just kind of doing one-on-one or, you know, one-on-two meetings with people like that than I have at, like, say the speed dating events and that sort of stuff.

12:20 Rebecca Strang
Yeah, and that's a good point, too. I mean you're… if you're already at a gaming convention and there isn't a time issue, it's hard to imagine someone saying, “No I don't want to play games!”

So, what is your favorite part of Shogunate if you had to pick one?

12:38 Adrienne Ezell
I think the last round when there's three or four different leaders that could, you know, push somebody over to that twelve points that they needed to claim a victory… It gets very tense and that'll be the longest round of the game as the hatamoto sits there and just tries to remember if people have switched cards or not and thinking, you know, “am I king making or am I gonna win… I'm not sure?” It's like that that delicious tension of that last round is really my favorite.

13:09 Rebecca Strang
Awesome! And, so, taking into consideration, you know, the game's theme, the mechanics, the accessibility that we've talked about… who would you say is the primary target audience for this game?

13:20 Adrienne Ezell
So, I think this is going to be your casual gamer or your folks opening up for a longer game night. The play time is about 20 minutes. It's a great icebreaker and gets people's minds kind of working in that bent and it's quick enough that if you want to play again, you can. Some of my first fans were actually folks that play it on our lunch break like every day and it's, it's kind of a feud at this point of ‘who's gonna win today’ and a hidden ‘who can figure who can figure out who everybody is’. And then I have another group that told me like they liked, you know, before somebody says they've won, and of course they believed them, but then they have everybody go around and try to name who everybody else is so, like, they kind of have like a secondary winner who figured out who absolutely everyone was, so it's… it's… it's so humbling to, like, have people play my game!

14:12 Rebecca Strang
That's awesome! And so, I know the game is already out, so for those still going to conventions this year, is it going to be available at any conventions?

14:23 Adrienne Ezell
I think Cool Stuff or Miniature Market… one or the other definitely has it and all the FLGS [friendly local game stores] have it because it's with, like, I think two different distributors.

14:32 Rebecca Strang
Awesome, so everybody will have to keep an eye out for shogunate when you're out at your cons or check to see if your local game store has it even.

14:40 Adrienne Ezell
Beautiful white box with a lady on the front, yes!

14:43 Rebecca Strang
Yeah, the art is really pretty. I love all of the character art in this. It's gorgeous.

14:47 Adrienne Ezell
Thank you, I do to - it's phenomenal.

14:50 Rebecca Strang
And, so, where can people find you online if they'd like to connect or just look up what you're up to?

14:56 Adrienne Ezell
Alright for sure, I am at Dreadful Games, so DreadfulGames.com and I have a contact form on there. I'm on Facebook which is Dreadful Games; twitter @DreadfulGamesCO; and Instagram if you just want to see a little bit of nerd pith and pretty photos of games and sometimes even prototypes, that's @LoxleyGram. L-O-X-L-E-Y-G-R-A-M.

15:18 Rebecca Strang
Well, thank you so much for talking to us today and I would look forward to having you when again when we're working on your next game!

15:26 Adrienne Ezell
All right, I would love that!

15:27 Rebecca Strang
Thank you for listening to this episode of Playability. If you have any questions or comments you would like to share with us, please email us at playabilitypod at gmail.com or find us on major social media platforms @playabilitypod. Thanks again for listening. I hope this episode helps you play with a new perspective!