Unholy: Organized Nonreligion
With Special Guest, Pamela Whissel of American Atheists

2018, The Nonsequitur Show
Season 1
http://www.nonseqshow.com/4

In this episode, we are joined by the membership director and editor-in-chief of American Atheist Magazine, Pamela Whissel to discuss the efforts the AA is implementing to normalize and remove the stigma associated with the word "Atheist." In addition we talk about the buzz surrounding this year's American Atheist Convention in Oklahoma City and which one of TV's most notorious doctors will be making a "_House Call_" as the key note speaker. _Hugh_ won't believe who it is.
Transcript

[0:00] Music.

[0:16] This is the non sequitur show season 1 episode 4 Unholy found featuring the membership director and editor-in-chief of American atheist magazine.

[0:31] Pamela whistle and now you're DJs of Doubt final Curtis and Steve McRae.

[0:37] Music.

[0:51] Hello beautiful people this is non sequitur where boat ideas are righteous unique perspectives are gospel and strong opinions are sacred I'm Kyle Kurtis,
that Steve McRae and momentarily will be joined by American atheist membership director and editor-in-chief of American atheist magazine,
Pamela whistle today will be discussing how the American atheist Association is working everyday to normalize and D stigmatize the word.
Atheist and will also include details of the upcoming convention.
In Oklahoma City and we'll reveal which TV doctor will be making a surprise house call as keynote speaker,
nonsequitur is proud to partner with the geek room a weekly show on YouTube covering the latest news Tech games and other cringe-worthy videos from parts of the web you never knew existed,
join Frank Wolf and brand of all this Friday for let's riff at 9 p.m. with special guest.
Shannon cute joining us now is Pamela whistle.
Membership director and editor-in-chief of American atheist magazine Pam has been editor-in-chief of American atheist magazine since 2011. May is from the University of Cincinnati.
And her b-day is from the University of Dayton prior to coming to American atheist she was a local news anchor for a National Public Radio affiliate in Kentucky,
a television News writer for the CBS station in Cincinnati and announcer for Cincinnati public television pledge drives.

[2:25] Under her Direction the magazine made publishing history when it went from a subscription only publication to one that is sold in bookstores.
Throughout the United States and Canada in doing so,
American atheist has become the first periodical in US history to appear on newsstands with the word atheist in a title in addition Pamela overseas membership programs and the growth.
Of American atheist member Support Network,
Pam it is such a pleasure to have you here with us today thank you for joining us and how are you doing thanks for having me in the beginning there was Pam,
tell us about your journey to the American atheist Association maybe an hour and 15 minutes,
wow okay so this is this is kind of a long story and there's a few ways to tell it let's say okay you didn't ask me how.
What my religious history is so I will just tell you how I got involved with American atheist and that is that I was living in an apartments in Northern Kentucky right across the river from Cincinnati Ohio and they're at my next door neighbor's,
they were a Catholic parish and they decided that they were going to ringer church bells every 15 minutes 24/7 and the bells got the number of the number of bongs got increasingly.

[3:56] More as the hour went on so they're like for at quarter after the hour 6 at bottom of the hour.
At quarter till 9:12 at the top of the hour then it would ring the hour so at 11 you would have 12 + 11 equals,
23 is 11 at night it was not it was nuts and the weird thing was that,
nobody wanted to say anything about this church let me know but none of my neighbors wanted to say anything it was this was in Bellevue Kentucky it's a,
delightful delightful place to live very very are walkable neighborhood you can walk to everything it's,
right across the river from Cincinnati I love the place to death but,
everybody on the city council blancs to that parish and it was just it was weird I got like maybe 2 or 3 people,
to you know maybe make a make a,
complaint with me so they had to turn the church bells off at like 10 at night because of the noise ordinance but other than that they could do whatever they want and that's it that do what they did they did they did whatever they want so I get in touch with the chief of police and he says well here's what I would suggest I would suggest writing to the pastor,
if you don't get anywhere you write to the bishop and if you don't get anywhere contact the County Attorney.
So we did the three or four of us however many there were.
wrote a letter to the to the pastor which went unanswered then we wrote a letter to the bishop and I have that letter taped on my office door.

[5:31] Okay that's how important this is to my past American atheist and the picture so that the problem has been solved cuz they were turned off at night besides these,
those are the voice of God and if there's ever a time when we need to be listening to the voice of God it's now and I'm thinking to myself.

[5:55] Now really not during the Holocaust whatever but I was actually kind of happy because he had in writing the.
I had to adhere to his religion and he's not allowed to do that right because I have civil rights so I'm all excited I go to the county attorney I,
I I give them the letters and I make them an Excel spreadsheet to to total up at,
you know how many times these bells toll per day and what's the frequency and it turned out that they this is with them being turned off at night,
500 times a day 600 on the weekends and the frequency average go to war frequently than once every two minutes,
so I dropped my stuff off to the county attorney I follow up in a few days later I get I get assigned to the assistant County attorney and he says yeah I received this,
I received your papers and this is ridiculous we've got a similar situation going on in,
and the other Township let me just check some laws see what's on the books and I'll get back to you course you never got back to me and I had to follow up with him so I called him back.

[7:03] And I said hi I'm just wondering where we are with this and he said and I'm okay this is I'm not kidding,
you said I'm sorry there's nothing we can do I said what I said you did see the Excel spreadsheet,
500 times a day 600 on weekend yet yet yes I'm I'm sorry okay so that's how much the Catholic church has a grip on Campbell County Kentucky,
well what was I going to do I guess I was just going to decide that life was going to be terrible because I love my apartment I love my neighborhood I really couldn't afford to move it didn't want him but I just thought.
You know you can just.
I don't know you somehow coat maybe you'll just never go home again so I'll fast-forward just a couple of weeks and I have some friends who I haven't seen in a long time,
this is going somewhere by the way I had some friends I haven't seen in awhile they said hey we got to get together for dinner if we set the date for Tuesday and then like the day before they said to me there's a speaker who's coming to town we want to go here the speaker.
Do you want to go with us before we meet for dinner and the speaker was,
Sean Faircloth who at the time was the executive director of the secular coalition,
for America now I had already known about lots of atheist organizations I had no idea that there were secular Americans who coalesced and I was just,
over the moon and I thought I looked cute she's going to maybe have some ideas and suggestions for me,
as far as if there's anything I can do I have any rights here so we go to the thing.

[8:37] And he gives this really great talk about the rise of secularism in the United States and religious preference and how it's wrong and and it was it was great and in the Q&A,
explain my situation I said do you have any advice and the only thing he did was he he said you have the best attorney in Kentucky for that kind of thing sitting right over there,
an appointed to somewhere and then on to the next question.
At what who what what so after the thing was over I'm thinking now how am I going to find this guy well I turn my head and they're standing in front of me holding on his business card was Edwin kagin,
who at the time was the national legal director for American atheists.
I went to his office I talked to him about the bill situation and I walked out of his office with a with a copy of his book bottles of blasphemy and invitation to the summer picnic for the,
free inquiry of Cincinnati and Northern Kentucky and a brand new friendship with with him and his wife Helen so we became fast friends I ended up a few months later working as his paralegal,
so
I that's what that was my introduction this time around to American atheist my direction metal of Ariel hair happened in 8th grade and that's another story but I digress,
so anyway I become fast friends with Edwin and Helen,
I become his paralegal I got to work on all the American atheist cases that's how I meet David Silverman,
Dave and I met at Camp Quest Edwin is the founder Evan and Helen were the founders of Camp quest which is a summer camp for atheist and agnostic and free thinker.

[10:15] I'm family still anyway I was a volunteer counselor in chemquest Michigan so is Dave otte's how we met,
not long after that date becomes president not long after that they need a new magazine editor,
I apply for the job because that's my actual that's my real background I get the job,
and here I am 7 years later sitting in the office of the editor-in-chief and membership director of American atheist what happened with the bills,
they did eventually stop,
but you know it was really kind of it didn't matter anymore because I had fallen into this whole new group of people that I had no idea existed right of my own City so it was actually just kind of funny that these,
the because of these bells American atheist add another member,
that's what I was getting ready to say are you sure Pam it is not by some divine intervention that the bells just told on the right time I,
tanabe prove that it wasn't,
and when I have to give the short answer I will say so Parham hide your God you're going to go with mermaid guess I'll say God brought me to American atheist,
yeah you know it it was it was not fun when I was in the thick of it but it sure makes for a good story now,
American atheist.

[11:46] No because we we say American atheist,
and I mean went when other people do we know it's you know it's understood,
we don't we don't run screaming at someone says AA cuz we are we are AAA just like the other AA but it's you know it's not that big a deal but we don't have any logos or anything like that with just a a r logo it just has one A why would we need an American atheist Association like what what is the purpose of that organization,
the purpose of that organization is to fight to keep the wall that separates religion from government standing and II,
part of our mission is to normalize atheism and,
by that we we we fight against you no discrimination against atheists we fight against locations of religious privilege and we encourage,
closeted atheists to come out because there are a lot of atheists in the closet and they are everywhere,
call the laziest are in the church pews they're there at the basketball game there at the football game.
Everywhere they're up on the they're up in the Pulpit preaching some of the closet atheists I was there I was there a very long time,
no it was a Preacher Man but I'm from North Carolina which is the,
and right now we are at this moment and the history of our government we are facing some unprecedented challenges the the Trump Administration is in a wood would take an enormous Wrecking Ball and not the whole thing down if.

[13:29] If they could have it their way so we're very busy these days did you get a chance to listen to the Commander in Cheetos State of the Union,
I listen to a little bit of it usually those things I usually read the transcript afterwards I don't know my garbage disposal,
I was just curious because and it seemed to me from outside point of view that he was really trying to cater to the far-right Evangelist quite quiet,
a lot that's the only days he has left us so that's what he's going to do some air all kind of pointing that out,
yep we put in perspective to you his his number one cheerleader now.
Is Jim Bakker yeah Jim Bakker who sells buckets buckets of food for your bomb shelter did you have you seen the he's got a lead now and this is not a lie you can you can,
feel free to look it up as soon as we get off of here but he has custom made a toilet seat lid to store weed that bucket so in case the power goes out,
you have a place to go to the Peter Popoff cuz to pop up so,
well are you guys give it away that you donate for the Myrtle spring water so you can have buckets of food and you have water Uniqlo dinner,
you're old enough to know about Tammy Faye right oh yeah,
yeah okay yeah some Jim Baker's back it doesn't matter how many crimes they committed you know there are going to be people who want to believe and that's just how it is and you you are there so many closeted atheists.

[15:11] I'm in this country right now that we don't even really need to to think about you know the ones who would never be able to be convinced that there,
is a possibility that there is no God I'm in this thing on the Jim Bakker thing just shows you just how how strong that desire to believe in to have an answer is Peter Popoff he was outed by James Randi on the Johnny Carson show,
yeah that's a really that's a really great story James Randi was at our last National Convention which we had in August in,
Charleston South Carolina solar eclipse really do have a tough time coming out of the closet now this year we are going to be in Oklahoma City and that's going to take place March 29th to April 1st,
and our keynote speaker I can't even okay or keynote speaker is Hugh Laurie,
how cool is that way serious way yeah I know so come on you have to come we got house will be in the house,
house is a David Silverman fan that's how we knew that that's how the whole thing got started and then awesome,
house is quite easily if somebody just needed the filmmakers afterwards we are going to be.

[16:44] Who else could hear all the managing editor at Snopes Brooklyn Gronkowski she's going to be there,
Natasha stoynoff is going to be speaking Natasha stoynoff is the writer for People magazine who talked about her Donald Trump,
sexual assault experience When She interviewed him at Mar-A-Lago.
I'm on the occasion of the Trump's first anniversary she went public with that she'd cups to herself all these years but then when the grab them by the pussy tape came out she said that's it.

[17:14] This this is just we have to know this this guy is running for president that's going to be,
a wonderful woman whose book I I think it's the best book I've ever read in her name is Mary Johnson she was a nun,
with Mother Teresa's religious order for 20 years and now she's now she's an atheist and she's a humanist celebrant,
and anybody who is Catholic knows that Mother Teresa was I mean it.
That was the gold standard and it was actually just leaving a little higher than human Christopher Hitchens.
Christopher Hitchens I read that book and,
Mary just gives you the inside story and it's and it's amazing it's an amazing story and she's going to be at the convention too so I'm very excited about that other many atheists in Oklahoma.

[18:10] Oh absolutely yeah,
yeah and there's a very there was a very active organization in one of our Affiliates in Oklahoma City really,
there are atheist everywhere we go we go where that where religiosity is assumed,
I'm with Charleston like I like I said I we've been to Memphis Tennessee we were in Salt Lake City we were in Des Moines Iowa we go to these places first of all too,
you know to let the atheist know that we exist and the other reason is that if we were to go,
where to have a convention in you know Seattle or Miami or New York we'd have a convention but when we go to these other places were Front Page News oh no good news yeah.
Boys doing Easter weekend to invade absolutely absolutely just exactly,
atheist descend upon and we put up a billboard a Christmas time in Oklahoma City that said just like Santa Claus the atheists are coming to town,
and the world is permanently strapped myself,
yes so we can we put that billboard up and it it just a work like a charm because the local news stations covered it and they showed the billboard they showed the date of the convention and then repeated the,
you know the dates and,
location of the Hotel The Sheraton downtown genius.

[19:46] Play Sweet me too yeah yeah we absolutely do.
And there is we have an absolute hard and fast rule that you need to engage in a civil way with them if not,
Hugh you can't you know you can't come back inside to the convention but we do we get the,
did the signs in the protesters and they're usually pretty nice people in the house right beside of Westboro Baptist Church next year,
I think that would be in an epic I mean I've got this wish list a mile on I want to go to Arkansas where the Duggar family lives,
images they have now 19 them awhile back and it was 19 at the point but they're all you know they're off the air that was just some crazy stuff,
so relative to data how does atheism look what are some statistics give us some numbers is atheism.
On The Rise is it decreasing is it stagnant.

[20:49] What are the numbers let's just let's let's make sure that we are talking about how people self-identify publicly okay because,
wonder where are the atheist there are there because there are so many closeted ones,
did the number is much bigger than than I think any of us can an estimate but as far as people who acknowledge that they are.
Atheist agnostic nothing in particular that sort of thing there's a couple of studies and it can be as high as 25% of our population now.
That is more than Jews Muslims Hindus and Christians combined really,
yeah and where the Catholic population is about 20.
.8%.
Well it ain't yours work that's really interesting there are people who say I don't believe in God but I wouldn't call myself an atheist because the word atheist has such a bad connotation but the reality is that everyone's an atheist,
why is everyone an atheist because when you go to the Oxford English Dictionary which is the last word in the English language usage the word atheist mean someone who denies or dis believe the existence of a god,
not God a God so that means that unless you believe in all of the guys that I've ever been trumped up you're an atheist.

[22:21] Season of smile on Kyle's face this is what he told me. Wait there,
it's not a bad word what's even better what's even better is what what's the first commandment the first commandment is to be an atheist,
by the way I look at it the Oxford dictionary is 4 clove wheeled General meetings is the definitive.
Record of the English language and they list every known definition and pronunciation,
current and Obsolete and they trace the origins of words derived from other languages,
and they provide the source of every words earliest written appearance on record so what would be the definition of atheism as far as the Stanford encyclopedia philosophy which is the definitive.

[23:20] Measured by which philosophical 10:30 find here let me Google that for you I don't know I think you're asking out your why don't you tell us,
what's theirs was called the sensors stricto approach that's where you look it up a term and you take it.
Very very narrowly rather than broadly propositionally speaking the term atheist has in academics been defined as the.

[23:47] Denial or disbelief of the proposition of theism and when I say this plate that's the rejection meaning that it's false so the proposition of theism would be that.

[23:57] At least one God exists ontological in the universe 1 God exist or more if you think that's false,
then that would be what they call the philosophical atheist or explicit atheist so when you're looking at things like the Oxford dictionary yes it does have the etymological.
The derivation of the word but then you run into the animal logical fallacy that words are used me than what their historical meeting has been.

[24:20] So when I exactly they've been able to myself we Jack the colloquial definitions and I accept the more formal academic switch again it's only a personal choice.
Right in and say it and that you make a good point because the the word atheist you know and I know I use this example.
Kind of because the Bible is the Bible is the last word for you know for religious belief for quite a few people so the OED is sort of,
you know if there's an equivalent that's you know that would be the gold standard but yeah religion has his co-opted that word and you know,
as turned it into a word that means somebody without morals or without values or someone who cannot tell right from wrong and that's just simply not true and the reality is that we live and in a nation today where,
you know it's still a bad word and that's one thing that American atheist does was we try to fight that stigma.
The pejorative attachment to the word atheist I think is a good reason to try to normalize I think the word should be normalized I don't think there should be a stigma attached to it absolutely.
But I do think that people should be able label themselves in the way that they did they choose to not be labeled by other people.
I'm with Kali Temple of Gnostic and I ever well formed epistemological reasoning for that I do read a lot about epistemic.

[25:46] Reasoning and I and I think that my particular approach to the proposition of theism is agnostic point of view right suspend judgement on it personal,
but I do think there's a valid argument to be made for political and demographic reasons why you would want to have more people.
Self identify as an atheist that that I definitely agree with however.
If somebody doesn't want to I don't see the point of trying to put that label on them cuz lot of times it's not just for the fact.
That there's a stigma attached to it I'm not worried about things so I don't really care if you think I'm an atheist or not.

[26:24] I was atheist but I said I don't have self identify with that would you agree that I'm allowed to take the label that I want the best suits me and not.
Have to defend myself about somebody else saying while you know you are action atheist cuz then you run into the same thing well.
Atheist can say well you're actually at the is cuz Romans 1 says your fuel almond believe in God but you just denying that in your own righteousness it's the same kind of approach,
no I think it's different because when you go to the Bible for.

[26:53] You know for your for your argument it's the argument doesn't exist you know your worth is because in the Bible it says that everyone says he is.

[27:01] Of course you can call yourself whatever you want absolutely absolutely...
The self-identification of these labels just I don't Advocate one definition is the correct one,
over another there are no such thing as correct or not correct definitions for say there's a useful and and more.

[27:24] I get that okay what did you say I don't like to have the position that certain things are right or wrong or correct or not correct. Obviously if you have a definition that so,
ask you from what the actual definition is that sure if there is a wrong definition but if use of Oxford dictionary or fuse Stanford encyclopedia.
Either one's acceptable I mean the whole lack of belief is an example definition if you lack of belief in God,
that is a very colloquial it's going to send some Lotto,
definition broadly speaking but again people don't have to accept that particular definition they can reject.
The dictionary and go to more philosophical sources that I could actually use.
Who are these people that are that are telling you that you can't use your own definition it's a very select group of atheist that seem to think that.

[28:12] If you like ably if you are you're an atheist.
By sufficient reason such that it is a necessary condition to lack of life to be an atheist all atheist black and white for the you are start atheist week atheist.
Worthless or implicit but it's not a sufficient condition because I lack of belief in God because I'm a temple of Gnostic which is a necessary precondition to be an atheist.
But it's not sufficient because epistemic Lee I don't hold up its record for this position that you gave us earlier.

[28:44] Does that count for people who identify as agnostic or atheist.

[28:50] Or does it combine everybody into an atheist category or does it not include agnostics.

[28:59] Well we we have never done you know we've never done a survey we just look at at the you know. And PRI and you know that those sorts of Placer and it's it's up to them you know how they how they Define it,
there there's a pair I just released a study and it was the,
it took place in 2016 they just.
Finished all of their other valuation was a survey 100 1,000 people from all 50 states and,
among the religiously unaffiliated,
14% were atheist 13% right Gnostic and 58% were secular and they Define secular as someone who said I'm neither agnostic nor atheist I'm just nothing.
What is the problem I don't think that most people for lack of a better word really think about it that deeply.
Dejan on the flip side of that they don't think that deeply about why they are religious,
and why are you going to church well.
Why wouldn't I go to church it would never occur to somebody's not go to church because it's what you've always done so,
true American atheist is that the word atheist if that's what you choose to call yourself is is.

[30:24] Not pejorative term and that's a a belief in a supernatural being does not give you a pass on the laws that everybody else has to,
has to do on the way to American atheist is the fact that no matter whether you're an atheist agnostic,
he was going to call you whatever you want to do identify as I think almost everybody in the that big umbrella group of non-theists would agree,
that the separation of church and state is something that must exist in that the encroachment of,
religiosity enter our school system is something that must be prevented at all cost.
Who who who also understand.
That's the wall that separates church and state is actually the best thing for both because church-state separation is the epitome of religious tolerance so it's not just it's just not just not this tits It's also.
It's also religious people that doesn't get there with particular religion that's going to be the theocracy of the,
yeah and that exactly everybody assumes that everybody assumes that it's.
You know it it did it's their religion that would win out if there was ever a big battle but.
You know I was raised Catholic and Catholics are not doers they're not they're not a bunch of you know,
let's all get together and we're going to actively you know Marching for form something you know and.
Isis is so really who do you think's going to win if it was the fact that I think that.

[32:02] Fortunately if there wasn't a Super 8 separation from the state I think.
Islam would probably be the dominant religion of America at some point how's that working out in the Middle East,
yeah. Don't think about us remix of awesome point there the Islamic community is a very active Community to try to,
right up and it's even more so than evangelist.
I would say it's something I would not population is on the rise in the United States that's the only one that,
that's growing.
Yeah so yeah you know it is it's not just a it's not just a it's a numbers game it's and it's not just a personality game so no this is something that's been going on for a while,
and it's and it's and it's you know because of because of the culture remember the the,
the terrorists who flew the planes into the World Trade Center they they were not poor and angry and disenfranchised they were educated people,
who shot that you know once they finish their fly they were going to be in Paradise with 72 virgins honestly,
believe that for me to grasp somebody honestly thinking that that is a viable option and you know it hits if that's the girl is flat. Not much is that much at this point weather show but you know what you and your indoctrinated into something if it's,
if that's the only world's you you're given how are you going to how are you going to think any other way people tend to believe.

[33:33] The religion there indoctrinated too or at least exposed to more often,
most religious people in Asia are Buddhists in.
Most religious people in Israel are Jewish and you know I mean it's yeah absolutely.

[33:55] I mean if it's the word of God was that important.

[33:59] I mean why did I have to credit Christopher Hitchens for this white why did he show himself to a bunch of illiterate itinerant desert people why not go over to China where they were already reading and writing,
good look good line.

[34:12] You guys did you get kind of a milestone I believe with the magazine don't you tell us what that was.
Was founded by madalyn Murray O'Hair,
who was the founder of American atheist and when I came on board I came aboard in 2011 and a few months after that we were able to get the magazine on,
the shelves in bookstores.
Around the country and understands and it's the first time in the history of the United States that a periodical with the word,
atheist on it is sold in a in a bookstore or just sold unit to the General Public,
I already pinched myself everyday that I that I that I have this gig for just for a lot of reasons.

[35:12] I'm just too I'm just too concerned about doing a good job with the stewardship that I've been given to really,
have a lot of time to like dance around and say yippee Yahoo but,
I have to tell you it's it's it's a pretty incredible feeling to get into those kind of stores I did you face any kind of pushed back or Resistance 2,
but we work with the distributor and they had certain standards of how the periodical have to look you know it couldn't just be like a Xerox newsletter that sort of thing and we got them we got the magazine looking really good as far as layout and design and,
it kind of paper and all that sort of thing and soda distributor doesn't have a problem with it at all we do know we do get stories of people going into Barnes & Noble,
and saying that they don't like it that step atheist magazine is there and so the store manager will remove the magazine from the newsstand on but then supposedly yeah this is just an addict. We actually got from the distributor,
but then supposedly after the person,
after the person left the store they put it back on but with the why would they remove something I think that's capitulating to people I don't exactly,
of course it's censorship of course is censorship but.

[36:29] You know the manager at like I said it's an anecdote and I have I really have no idea you know what's what's going on or what went on there probably true stories were validated,
right exactly it sounds like you'll be true but I need that sounds like something. Why wouldn't it be,
so there are people I'm sure who Who hide the magazine you know but then we've got other people who you know I can call,
people calling me all the time saying went went went to go to be in the store to give me the dates cuz let you know I got to go to my Barnes & Noble so I mean it absolutely cells and in the stores and that's what Barnes & Noble cares about no we did when the Charlie hebdo magazine staff were.
Were murdered in January of what 3 years ago 4 years ago now yeah we put we put it in an image of,
we put a cartoon image of Muhammad on the cover and it was what it was what it was was it was an image of Charlie hebdo cover and then so then that meant that it was on our cover it was absolutely the,
only thing that we could do is I was there was just no way that I wasn't going to get I wasn't going to do that because,
if I wasn't able to do that then I I need to step down because it was my turn to shore up the foundation of the First Amendment and every publisher you know their turn comes around sooner or later and that was my moment and we were the only American print.

[38:01] Publication to even reproduce one Charlie hebdo cartoon let alone two to reproduce,
a cartoon of Charlie hebdo that had the depicted it's page of Muhammad the only one in the United States and it was it was very angry time for me and a lot to me for a while and won't charge,
to all to all the news media in the United States should you print still have you printed a cartoon yes or no you know when it when the moon,
it was absolutely one of the most important weeks of my life I think we have a serious problem in this country whenever you have people who are,
literally willing to kill you over drawing a picture of an imaginary being and you have,
media outlets and corporations that couch out of this I mean it's nobody's asking you to die for this I mean that's her that's stupid we need you around,
so if you truly think that you are in danger just passed for now,
but if the reason you're doing it is that you don't want to offend other religious people and shame on you shame on you the only,
what the only reason we have our first amendment is that we use it and there are going to be times when it's in that there's going to be efforts to knock it right down and it's the people whose job it is who have a job in the first place because the First Amendment.
It's our it's our duty as human beings to to exercise their First Amendment right.

[39:32] Right away and I was I was very very I was bitterly disappointed that,
because from what I could understand and it went all the reading that I did about it it really was out of you know not wanting to offend people out of fear for safety and if it was to come out and say,
if I worked at American atheist.
I know the one job I would love to have is the mailroom because I am sure that you get all kind of hate mail.
To me that would just be so much fun to read do you get a lot of hate mail.
Oh oh my goodness yeah we got I got I get letters from,
from people who are atheists saying you know that that article that really kind of went over the top you're just really,
pushing the envelope there and I don't know how that's going to make atheist look good and can't you just tone it down a little bit I may even from other atheist,
and I have turns out that those articles are the same articles where I get I get comments wow I'm so glad you worried about that and that's why I offense offense needs to be absolutely,
irrelevant absolutely positively irrelevant 3 days ago I got an email from somebody he said I'm riding I'm riding some,
some poetry in their spoofs on Christian hymns and I died I don't want to I don't want to offend anybody with this I want to put a good face on atheism I'm wondering if I could soar just run this by you and you can give me your feedback about where I'm going too far and him and I said.

[41:08] Did I don't need to see any of your work because none of it goes too far and you are the only one,
be that the work that you know you don't publish because you're afraid of offending someone and he wrote back and he said.

[41:23] Thank you for thank you for the vote of confidence but I really do think that at that we atheist need to stick together and so I'm just going to find somebody else to I'm going to find somebody else to run this by,
who the most expensive group,
is is usually the religious about offending people and having a good joke.
I'm and pushing that envelope because it's all context,
I'm not going to be wearing the American atheist t-shirt to,
my cousin's baby's baptism you know I'm just not going to do that my cousin but she was.
Facebook praising Jesus that it didn't wasn't working I would metastasize The Lawns I was going to tell her,
why did Jesus give you cancer in the first place,
a few years ago let's see this was maybe the July 4th of July in 2011 I believe we hired some airplanes to fly atheism is patriotic those banners like it like over you know,
stadiums we did that on the 4th of July.
And we did it in like three cities and you know that was that was offencive to some people and,
you can't write this stuff I mean you really can't,
oh you don't have to go please I've got I got material to take me into 2050 but anyway okay so that was offencive now.

[42:57] It was what not even 55 years ago that it would have been defensive that you had to share your Park and your,
Fourth of July picnic space with a black family offencive is just it's just not it it's,
and they can't back that up in the Bible they can actually point to a verse that would justify why you had to have separate parts and why you couldn't use shoe in the next issue of the magazine in the second quarter,
the first quarter issues American atheist magazine we were for 2017 we are going to be publishing a an article about how the Bible condone slavery and there is no where in the Bible it says.
Doesn't even bring up the debate about whether,
it is wrong or right it just is and that includes Jesus himself the people are advocating freedom of religion should be the same people advocating freedom from religion.
It it works both ways you can't just have a unilateral approach to that now and I think that.
And I have to say you know coming from the privileged privileged position of,
religion growing up you know I'm I'm a Caucasian Catholic and,
so my all by seen them everything fit right into my world you and when you when you are,
and that privileged position and somebody comes along and wants to put them in Nora next to the nativity scene that sat in front of City Hall I get that that's you know that kind of feels.

[44:27] Weird inoffensive and what are you doing this is our tradition that that's I think that's only natural.
you know the people who really want to understand I do understand and you know after you have a conversation with them we sued and animal shelter it County Animal Shelter in New Jersey if you months ago,
and I had a fundamentalist want to call me and she said I wear this in the news this,
really the puppies in the kittens come on Saturday blessing of the animals okay,
so anyway I had this conversation with her so help me understand and I and I just said this is this is a religious ceremony and just because this is a wonderful place that does good things you know,
this is this is this our tax dollars and you cannot you can accommodate and provide for a religious ceremony but what about what about all the animals that won't get adopted,
well you know how many shelters there are in the same county that don't have tax funding why don't you take your blessing there,
and bring attention to that shelter how much how much flax seeds did you get for,
for this one we got we got enough flag that my whole editor's letter is about when atheist send us hate mail man,
oh Pam there had to be I mean just a little bit of hesitation when you're faced with suing a,
animal shelter I mean you had to have you have to have hesitated on that I mean did you did we have the tape.

[46:02] No you don't file violations if you wanted if you want to get a foothold into into violating just a separation bringing the animals or the children because nobody wants to go after the animals are the children,
but an in what is far as the question of Arthur bigger fish to fry with all the problems in the world will violations on a larger scale evolve from these little ones and then nibble nibble them in the body is the most efficient and cost-effective way to uphold the wall it's really no different than.
Take a $10 antibiotic to fight infection that would otherwise hospitalize you if it went untreated you know $10 now or prolonged expensive Hospital stay later when your long-term health is at risk or away from your family and your livelihood and then saddled with us,
are the medical bill exponentially higher than $10 you know that's that's the situation if we let quote little violations violations fester and spread.
You know that shame on us there's no justification for delaying action,
and you know even you never know when you might have a problem with with a violation that nobody else has a problem with,
right and you can come to us and if there is a case will will go to bed for you the only time we hesitate is when we think we don't have a violation,
and what happened with that with that case would it still in process though. Yeah we filed our complaints and they have,
they haven't responded yet they have a certain amount of time to respond and we will keep you up it's it's all up on our website and will will keep everybody posted on that but yeah that's what is the Marines of freethought.

[47:41] Because we're going to you know go where other people might hesitate to go and it and it's important it's just very important,
do you ever get tired and then feel like you're fighting but peel all the time well we're not fighting uphill it's not uphill at all we're making good are making great strides and I do have to tell you if you have to tell you that I cannot I cannot come up with the words that adequately describe.

[48:04] How good it is that I'm doing something about this everyday now that we have the Trump Administration.
Oh yes I was so helpful it is so helpful that I don't have to quit my day job to join the resistance.

[48:19] Huge for well a lot of ways I would say that the the biggest worry really isn't him.
My biggest worry is Americans who don't vote.

[48:31] The highest voter turnout comes from conservative Republicans and conservative Christians you know.
It's it's liberals it's it's people who read my magazine it's it's you know it's people who have more and more liberal than two things that.

[48:50] They they don't understand that the ballot is not,
it's not a menu it's not a restaurant menu you can't just go to another restaurant if you don't like what's you know I'm the appetizer was the deal is you live in a democracy in the burden of the choices on yours is on you.
And if you hate Hillary and you hate Trump that's too bad.

[49:10] You have to make a choice because this is the deal if you want to make the decisions for you then go live in under a pope hurricane and and I don't think that's really talk to people enough.
That's it really is it it's not it's not well if you don't like the flavor.
You know you'll just come back next week it was my mind that the people that don't vote in the people that go to boat and write in another name,
aside from who's actually on the ballot just tap on me I mean it blows my mind to think that you would waste if those people,
fraction of those people have actually voted then we wouldn't be in the mess that we're in right now. That's too bad.
Neither was I Hillary lost my support when she voted to go to war in Iraq but I voted for her both of us in the RNC need to get their shit together they put up crap, in the meantime,
in the meantime while we are waiting for them to get their shit together we get to we need to get our shit together and understand.
Why not voting is simply not an option how do you motivate them,
right now there's nothing that interests me more so,
if you if you find out then please just help me know,
release a ballot to your,
your phone or your tablet that was Secure maybe it's your email address or are you telephone number and people could go that way then I think that you would have a almost 90% turn out I mean.

[50:47] People are just mobile now and they want to do something while they're in line so if you figure out a way to make a secure one time about my phone that's not going to happen anytime soon,
I mean clearly it's it's been obvious to us that,
that the internet has can can control an election entirely so while I swell I see that that is something that if it could work it would be great for a few decades we're not going to have that yet.
And there's just got to be,
we got to figure out other you know I don't know maybe make cookies for your friends yeah that just I don't I don't know what what it is now I'm lucky,
because ever since I was an infant on Election Day my parents would bring me to the polls they just stated it was just something that you did so I grew up understanding is something that you did even if it was easier for my Dad's on his way home from work he would come home from work.
He said come with me I'm going to go vote and the reason they did that yeah I see why you did that because now it's just inconceivable that you wouldn't vote,
okay and then yeah that's that's exactly what's up with you,
I'm I'm lucky in that way I'm also lucky that I had an opportunity to interview Holocaust Survivors for Steven Spielberg survivors of the Shoah foundation so I know people.
Who will live through something that is is.
Not a democracy I also was an English instructor to professionals and Executives from Mexico and South America every single one of those people at one point or another and they're on Lifetime had lived.

[52:23] Under something that's not a democracy and,
so I see the people I may I know them I know they exist I know it exists and I understand it that quite a few Americans don't have those opportunities in this easy to,
to think that democracy just is and it's not it's not just voting for the president voting a local level 2 I mean local voting for,
superintendents in voting for people that are controlling of the local and submit holidays in the local cities.
Because of the federal level where nothing's going to happen anytime soon that's going to be.
In favor of church State separation the best we can do is keep up what we have but at the local level American atheist actually has.
Initiatives where we are going around to schools and really anybody can join this.
This initiative that we have abstinence-only sex education is being taught in public schools all around the country and not just in the South and we have created a tool kit for people.

[53:25] And if they are so inclined they can go to their school and in a first talk to the principal and then maybe talk to the school board and that sort of thing and we've been able to phase out some abstinence-only.
Education.
I'm in in a couple of public schools in the country and that's where it's going to it's going to make the biggest difference right now and it's those it's those local changes that really.

[53:47] Those aren't what build a solid foundation for you know the rest of the stuff and I can make a difference.

[53:54] And this is what I was kind of going back to a little bit ago it just seems like you have so many different things going on from so many different fronts but you guys are actually making great progress and great strides in his actually,
working it seems like it's it's it's latching and taking hold,
for a lot of reasons on one is that you know they were there are there a lot of closeted atheists and so it's just a matter of letting them know that we exist.
We don't even have to go find that we just have to we have that's what that's why we do our billboard campaign the Christmas.
Is that you know it it makes it makes national news that makes local news and then all of the atheist in the closet who are watching the news.

[54:41] See this organization mean there's a whole organization I'm not the only atheist on the planet even better is when you will have a clergy person,
denounce hour,
quote on quote War on Christmas from the pulpit because then the atheist in the church pews learn about us we're never going to get to those people,
unless it's through the through the preacher so yeah and they're out there and think they're more and more come out every day.
By the way you guys should sell a shirt that says we're on Christmas I'm telling you you would sell out we have the AK-47,
have War on Christmas on the side so what you know what we're doing for sure we haven't done the background check on you yet we do have to do a background check for those on Christmas that's awesome,
Pam you are a great guess I mean we we have went.
Well over time that we had scheduled so you guys over time now I mean we won't say no to the money actually will donate it to the animal shelter just kidding just kidding go through vision Force,
one more time and then tell people where they can go to subscribe to the magazine if they like and get more information,
just from the organization of the whole sure everything is on our website atheist. Org.

[56:03] And if you want to just do a right into the magazine it's atheists. Org magazine,
if you'd like to become a member when we do all this stuff because of members support without members support we're just a bunch of well-meaning people with some good ideas so please I die.

[56:18] I heard you if you if you would have enjoyed this podcast if you have enjoyed listening to me and and my house please,
join us at even the individual level which is $35 we have a monthly,
program up a bill pension and sponsorship at $10 a month makes an enormous enormous difference atheist. Org join that's where you can find that now the convention is going to be March 29th to April 1st,
at the Sheraton Oklahoma City downtown hotel,
and we've got price special pricing for students weekend special pricing for military we have.
Members get in at a lower price than the non-members and we're going to have.

[57:04] Three days pact of parties and stand up comedy we're going to be doing a service project to to help a local food pantry we're going to have awesome speakers,
you are going to rub elbows with like-minded people who.
Who just love being there and you're going to meet some great people you're going to your going to.
Can I hear Hugh Laurie in person could I have you at Lori,
landlord is a stand-up comic is going to be performing we've got it man we've got we got the speakers and and and are.

[57:51] Are people who attend there just I just can't tell you they're all ages,
but we we just all have such a good time with each other it's it's it's the, rattery.

[58:04] Good that alone I mean nevermind that you're going to learn a whole bunch of stuff you're going to need a whole bunch of cool people you going to be doing some good for you know the local community you're going to be going to some great parties it just.

[58:18] Let's say none of that worked out.

[58:21] The camarada be alone is it is just such a special thing and I and I just encourage you if you have not been thinking about it this is the year to do it we also get,
we got ongoing coverage but we got that week at the front page news ahead of time which is grade 4,
before the locals and now that I convention exist that's more free advertising I think you guys should come to North Carolina next year,
I've been to what's the name of the beach I was at in North Carolina,
anyway it was wonderful that's where it was,
comes through work your own business or whatever they always say they're in the South bit as I feel like they're in this album. I mean if it feels like I don't see it that way,
I relocated to Cranford New Jersey to work at the American atheist headquarters full time so I did a few job groups,
and I just I have to tell you I I really do pinch myself every day this this organization does so much,
real concrete lasting good that that I get to be a part of and that there's I can't think of anything more satisfying maybe consuming three pieces a day and gaining no weight you know,
or church bells that wasn't satisfying mean,
and I had a funny story I I work remotely for a few months while I packed up and everything and as a membership director I was putting up the.

[59:54] Membership cards and I'm sitting I'm sitting in my home office and it's 6 the Bell still want they eventually stopped.
At some point with every 15 minutes but they would go off like gangbusters at noon and 6 and it was 6 and they were going off you know for their 92nd and extended dance mix and I'm sitting here.

[1:00:16] Turning out these membership cards and I just said every time a bell rings an atheist gets a membership card sound is sweeter than then they did that day,
well I guess I'll do the bill should be ringing because you at least picked up one more member here today I will be.
Filling out my membership when we close out of here and make it official thank you so much we'll get Steve eventually once he,
I had actually guess I got asked all the time do you have to be an atheist to have to be a member not only do not have to be an atheist you don't even have to be an American we have people all over the world,
who support us and we have a lot of religious people.
Who support us because they understand the church State separation is best for both of them when you get Steve McCray's membership card it'll be time for you to retire mean I will be your biggest,
where should I change the church State separation Steve.
Yeah okay so I can I can count on you for a membership to.
Hey you going to talk to me I have no problem with being a member of a specific group for specific reasons such as that I am,
separation of church and state I think what you do in the organization for that is remarkable.
And I do support that wholeheartedly who takes money so looking forward to your membership.

[1:01:51] It takes money sorry you know we have to and I wouldn't be doing my job if I wasn't I weren't asking both of you for,
the money and then also for the listeners atheists. Org.
American atheist National Convention March 29th to April 1st in Oklahoma City with Hugh Laurie as our keynote speaker,
that's all you need to know all you need to know.
Thank you so much for for coming on and we need to have you back to.
Oh well you guys are awesome episode of non sequitur,
we'd like to thank Pamela whistle once again for stopping by and giving us all that great information is you like to learn more you can go to www.
Atheist. Org most importantly would like to thank you The Listener for taking the time out of your day to join us here,
if you like what you hear please feel free to subscribe and share and also contact us with any feedback or questions that you might have we're constantly trying better show and your input,
definitely puts us on the right track to doing that video versions of this and other episodes are available on YouTube you can see these by going to youtube.com non-sequitur show or on our website at nonseqshow.
Best non,
seq show.com there you can also get information on upcoming episodes guests details from this and other episodes along with connecting with us on social media join us next Tuesday for another episode of non sequitur I'm call Curtis that Steve McRae and remember.

[1:03:34] Dream On never hide stable.