Joy Redstone "Compassionate Therapy, Counseling, and Poverty" **** [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host, David Devine. And itÕs a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions - Naropa is the birth place of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] [00:00:45.23] DAVID: Hello. Today, I'd like to welcome Joy Redstone to the podcast. She is the Director of the Community Counseling Center and an adjunct faculty. And prior to coming to Naropa she was the Executive Director of the Bridge House for 7 years and we'd like to welcome her to the podcast. So, thanks for speaking with us today. [00:01:03.08] JOY: Thanks so much. ItÕs fun to be here. I got to mention a couple other things about myself because they are things that I think will relate and are important. [00:01:13.11] DAVID: Please do. [00:01:14.08] JOY: One is that I am - an artist and a writer. I write for the Daily Camera. And I want to mention that because itÕs very important to the question of what I am doing at Naropa and the mission of the Community Counseling Center. [00:01:31.08] And the Bridge House I don't know if everybody might know what that is - that was a day shelter for homeless people in Boulder. And, it relates to - part of the reason I am here at the Community Counseling Center is that I am really, really passionate about helping and working with people that are poor. And that was - that's been a common theme uh in my career. And, it really relates to why I worked at the day shelter and why I am working here at the Community Counseling Center. I want to tell you some stories about that and I am a big believer in telling stories that's why I like to write. And why I like to create art and - [00:02:14.07] DAVID: Yeah, I think we all like some stories. So -- [00:02:15.20] JOY: Yeah, and -- to me therapy is about sharing stories. So, this year I turned 50 or this week I turned 50. And -- [00:02:26.01] DAVID: Happy birthday. [00:02:26.15] JOY: And yesterday was my 5-year anniversary of working at Naropa. So, itÕs been a kind of big week on a lot of different levels. And, I've been in that reflective state. So, the stories that I want to tell go back a long ways. I want to tell stories about - a few stories about growing up. When I was growing up - our family was - was really pretty poor. And, I didn't even really know at the time - that we were poor. My mom was a hippie and - she made growing food and canning and freezing seem like it was just the epitome of her hippie values which was very fun at the time. But, I do know that we very rarely had new clothes. And, I really remember things like only getting one pair of new shoes a year and of course they were always what I considered to be the ugly shoes. Uh, I have been working that out for a long time. I've got a lot of shoes now. But, those experiences - we were pretty isolated and there were a lot of ways in which my family was touched by - not just poverty but addiction and mental illness and like most of us I think that my pathway into helping people was created by - by those experiences. And I did what a lot of people do - I got an education. I don't know if I mentioned that I grew up in Central Pennsylvania and I don't know if you know much about how Germanic central Pennsylvania is. And it is all about education and hard work. So, I launched into like - I will educate myself to the extreme and I will work harder than anybody else. And I - and I - I went for that with a full gusto. And, my very first job out of college and then out of graduate school as well was working in a large homeless shelter in Boston. And I didn't even really fully understand why that spoke to me so much. Why I felt so passionate about helping people. Why it felt so important to - connect with people who were so deeply misunderstood and looked down upon and despised. I just had no sense that I was working out my own stuff, but I was. Of course. I went on to be a social worker and we'll fast forward through you know various - various jobs. But when I - was working here in Boulder at the Bridge House I also experienced a time of deep poverty. I had gone through a divorce. I was not making a great salary. I had two small kids, both in daycare. And, we were in the place where I was going to FFA for food and the kids were on WIC and Medicaid. It was such a formative experience to be serving poor people, experiencing poverty and living in this culture in Boulder where there is not much room for that. And, I experienced first hand some of the things that I focus on every single day in my work here at the Community Counseling Center. Like what it feels like to try to get help at places where you maybe - you're - you just don't fit their profile exactly. Or their instructions aren't totally clear to you. Or you ask someone for help and they very - in a very well meaning way tell you information but itÕs the wrong information. And, for me at that point I was working two jobs, so every moment was precious. So, when I was like running down - well meaning but incorrect information that might be like the only hour of the day that was like my time to myself. And it was so hard and frustrating and dispiriting, and it was very silencing. I felt that experience which I don't want anyone to ever experience when they walk through the door. That feeling of like I have to be a good poor person. I have to be the kind of poor person that people like. Or that doesn't speak up too much. Even when roles - or policies made absolutely no sense - I felt afraid to speak. And I remember that vividly. [00:06:54.22] DAVID: What prompted that from you? What made you feel that way? That you had to be the nice well put together person? [00:07:00.06] JOY: Because I so desperately needed the help. I remember when was signing up for it was like WIC or food stamps or something - I think it was WIC. And I didn't know that you had to bring the original copy of your kids' birth certificate. And, it wasn't written anywhere on any instructions. Because I am like an instruction reader, right? Like and a rule follower. And, you know it was not posted or written down anywhere and - and I felt so angry I'd like rush there after work. I had to get to daycare by a certain time. It was like my one little window. And I really wanted to be sarcastic. I wanted to complain. And I kept on thinking like what's bigger here? The help I need for my kids? Or my urge to complain right now. And, I just needed the help a lot more than I needed to complain. [00:07:52.02] DAVID: Yeah, there seems like there is no room to push back on the system that is hard to follow at some point. Or isn't - giving you the full information. [00:08:01.06] JOY: Sometimes it doesn't seem logical to the recipient how a place puts together their policies. And, but unless you are really, really inviting people to tell you about their experience - you will never know that because a lot of people need your help more than they need to complain or tell you that it doesn't fit them. We have so many ways of gathering back information about our client's experiences here. Survey Monkey things and client satisfaction surveys and things posted in the bathroom about how to complain to the director - i.e. me. You know that kind of stuff. Just all these different ways of trying to encourage people to have their voice here. Another experience out of being poor is about privacy. One day, I was at FFA and I was waiting to go to the food bank. And, mind you I was being an ED at the same time. It just doesn't pay that well. And, I see the then director of FFA who yells out - Joy what are you doing here itÕs so good to see you! And, I -- it was like I was in a public waiting room like and I just said - [00:09:18.06] DAVID: Getting called out. [00:09:18.11] JOY: Yeah. I said well I am here to use the food bank. And he was really crest fallen. He was - you know I am not trying to make him sound insensitive. He is a good, good person. But he just didn't - couldn't put together the idea that someone that could work hard and be successful was also someone that was experiencing poverty. So, there were again this something I think about every single day. What is the experience of privacy? I mean obviously there are all these laws and ethics about privacy and confidentiality. But, that's not what I am talking about. I am talking like - how do we live the values of respect from the ground up of which privacy and confidentiality are just the tip of the iceberg. [00:10:04.01] DAVID: Yeah and sometimes that costs money to be private. You know? [00:10:07.11] JOY: It does! That's - crazy isn't it. Like the more - the more money you have the more privacy you have. That's a reason why we don't make people show their - justification for their income to use a sliding scale here. ItÕs an honor system. We have a chart and you know itÕs the federal poverty guideline chart. You know got it right off the internet. Uh - but we talk to people so specifically. We go multiple times through the process of people getting connected to us. We talk about how - we're not going to make them jump through - any more hoops than they absolutely have to. And, that is so important. Why should - poor people have to prove more about their income than rich people? Uh -- [00:10:55.12] DAVID: And there is something weird about divulging a lot of information that you feel sensitive about to other people in a capacity that - you're trying to get help for things and I don't know it seems - it seems kind of weird that we need to know everything about someone before we can like oh you don't meet the mark - sorry. Or -- and I don't know there is something about that -- [00:11:15.06] JOY: Like I want to have the value if inclusion here. Not exclusion. I mean - my experience when working with homeless people is the vast majority of the people will not abuse the system. Any system you make a couple people will. And that's - maybe human nature - I don't want to get too philosophical about that. But, the vast - you know we would have socks for people to take. The vast majority of people would take one or two pairs of socks. Even though there are 45 pairs of socks out - the value system of the people who are taking the socks are such - I will only take what I need because I need there to be more for other people because I care about other people. And people that come to this clinic are exquisitely careful about not over using our resources for the exact same reason that they want this to be here - and accessible for other people. I really believe in people if you can't tell. And I believe that most people - will be honest and will - not take advantage of a system even if you make the system as opening, welcoming and inclusive as you can. At any rate, the whole theme that I am trying to express here is one about access. That when you're - when you're poor and you're working and - whatever your family stress is or other internal stresses that you have - its - making a system where people can have an ease of access that is so important. Nobody comes to counseling because they feel wonderful or everything is perfect in their life. They come because something hurts. Or doesn't feel right. Or - is unsettled or uncomfortable. And that is hard. And it takes so much freaking courage to ask for help. Particularly in our culture. [00:13:16.08] DAVID: Yeah, very interesting. [00:13:17.05] JOY: So, that is a value that we're trying to live out here. I also I want - I want to switch gears a little bit and - and talk a little bit specifically about the importance of understanding trauma. And people getting a chance to tell their story. When I started working at Naropa - I started working here 5 years ago doing 10 hours a week of substance abuse education. [00:13:43.16] And what I wasn't saying very much was that I was in a very hard place in my life. I had gotten married a year or two before that and right after I got married the person uh - that I was married got really, really physically ill. And was in physical agony. And, now you can analyze why working felt like a vacation. Got a little bit of a workaholic thing going on sometimes. But, for me - I wanted to be in that place where I felt - comfortable and like I was being of service. So, I came to Naropa and you know how it is that you find the things that you need sometimes even though you don't exactly know - why you need them. I had this strong intuition that Naropa was the right place for me. You know on Facebook when they do those like on this day - those memory deals? So, I look at those and it came up recently because it was the anniversary. It was like - I was posting things 5 years ago. I got - I am so excited to start work at Naropa! And I was just thrilled, right? My intuition was that this was this place that was a kind and gentle place. Where I could both be of service and I could lean into the kindness a little bit. And, as that story progressed like I keep want to keep on underlining story because I really want to talk about why story and therapy is important, but as that story progressed it had a really, really terribly sad ending. Which was that 3 1/2 years ago - the person I was married to took his life. And, it was - such a terrible shock and sadness at the time. And again, I didn't really tell a lot of people at the time. I - I had strong emotions. And I wanted to be professional at work. I didn't want to be bursting into tears. [00:15:57.22] DAVID: Why do you feel like you had to hold that close to your heart and not share it you know because like you were saying when people come to therapy it takes a lot for them to come? What do you think you were experiencing that made you kind of hold that in? [00:16:10.00] JOY: I wasn't ready to be - the poster child for like - recovering from someone's suicide. I just wasn't ready. [00:16:20.18] DAVID: Too soon? [00:16:21.11] JOY: But it was too soon. But there is a reason I am talking about it now and that is - the importance of telling the story when you're ready. In a place where people care about you and support you. Because that is what I have experienced at Naropa. In - in formal ways and informal ways. This has been a place - where I have been invited to be myself. I have been invited to tell my story. And you know what sometimes it takes me a couple of invitations. You know, I am used to - remember I had the central Pennsylvania Germanic background? I am used to toughening through. I am used to like I want to be strong. I learned about this thing called the burdened endurer architype at Naropa. And I was like holy moly. My whole life explained in an archetype. What do you know? [00:17:17.04] DAVID: Interesting. [00:17:17.03] JOY: Uh but - at any rate that's maybe a little bit of an answer as to why it was hard to say. But I have been - the longer I am here - the more convinced I am that I am welcomed to be here in my full self. And that is the most meaningful gift I have ever experienced in a workplace. And that - is what fires me up intensely about working here at the Community Counseling Center. People need to tell their stories. And the stories ideally are received by people who have both love and knowledge. The knowledge is important. I don't want to be out of balance on either side of that equation. Like understanding trauma. Understanding grief and bereavement. Having the intellectual frameworks to - have enough distance so that you can be a guide for another person. That is important. But it is nothing without love. And it is nothing without - being able to sit in compassionate presence with someone's deep, deep suffering. This year I went to a suicide commemoration event called Hope Lights the Night and of four or five of the interns from here went with me to volunteer to give - everyone that goes has lost someone to suicide right. And they were there to volunteer their counseling time. One of my interns, sat next to me - and just had her hand - on my shoulder while I cried. There was very - it was a beautiful service. There was incredibly beautiful music. Everyone's names were read. Candles were lit. I mean all the beautiful elements of ritual which I also really didnÕt understand ritual very much before coming to Naropa. In this beautiful ritual, I could have felt alone, but I asked - I asked. And that's a shift, right? Like I asked please sit next to me. And then she asked me -- [00:19:30.21] DAVID: Did you say that out loud or was that like -- [00:19:32.20] JOY: No, I asked - I literally asked that out loud. That's freaking growth. [00:19:38.05] DAVID: Yeah ask for what you need. [00:19:37.14] JOY: Growth. Right there. And, then -- she asked me - to put her hand on my shoulder. And, all she did was have her hand on my shoulder for about 10 or 15 minutes while I cried during the service. Not no words. Were needed. At all. For - me to understand that she was hearing and seeing part of my story. And, that she was receiving it in a spirit of profound compassion. So, why does this matter for our clients? It matters because - the bits and pieces I am telling you of my story - are so...universal. Pain, struggle, poverty, addiction, trauma, mental illness. All of those things have deeply touched my family life for my entire life. And they still do. And, I know - that healing is provided by people that have the courage and the presence and the knowledge to - to walk next to someone - in hearing their story. [00:21:00.06] You don't want to be too far ahead. People feel when their therapist feels like they have the answer. And believe itÕs really tempting to want to have the answer. I actually want to have the answer all the time. You know that is one of my things I have to watch as a therapist. I have been through a lot of experiences, so I have a lot of knowledge. [00:21:22.23] DAVID: ItÕs like a human thing to want to know the answer or to want to think you have it. [00:21:27.17] JOY: Yeah, itÕs so human and its constantly recognizing that in yourself as a therapist and stepping away from it and making sure you're there with the person and you're not too far ahead in the sense that you have the answer. People have their own answers. [00:21:45.13] DAVID: Yeah, I was about to say that. It feels as though therapy is a solution to discover the answers within all the time and then the therapist is there to guide you to that. And to be a container for you to realize that you are a powerful being. That can figure it out on your own. [00:22:05.08] JOY: You know a little confession - I did not train at Naropa. Uh - I trained a long time ago as a social worker at a pretty kind of formal back east type of school. So, I seriously had to unlearn some stuff. [00:22:19.04] DAVID: Yeah, but it seems like you've been practicing your whole life. That's what it sounds like. [00:22:22.21] JOY: Uh probably so. Well, I find that most people that are therapists come from families where there was difficulty or pain - and sometimes itÕs like we're the most sensitive ones. You know or the ones that - learned to not turn the destructiveness inward. But training as a social worker one of the things that they teach you about - well two things that are really, really important and that I want to teach the interns and externs here and that I want this clinic to embody are the principle of self-determination and the principle of looking at the person in the environment. Self-determination means - essentially what we we're just talking about. A person has the right answer for them. It may not look like the answer that ideally as a therapist I think would be best for them. But they have their own answers within. And, every time that we can be a conduit or a guide to helping them understand what their internal answers are and to maybe actualize those - that's the gift we have to offer people. Another bit that really is important - is the person and the environment part. I kind of tend to have some dark humor you know go through dark stuff. Get some dark humor right, but I always say to my students and to myself and to clients like - itÕs amazing how forgive the word, but mentally ill a person can look when they are desperate, or they think their kids are at risk or they're hungry or they are overwhelmed. A person can look far less healthy than they actually are in those moments of extraordinary stress. And when we put ourselves in that person's shoes and we have some sense of the weight and the burdens and the stresses and the different directions they are being pulled in it makes sense right, but we fall away from remembering that. And, when someone is fed and their kids are ok and they are housed, and they have what they need - that in and of itself makes a person infinitely more healthy. I mean I teach a lot about the DSM here in the clinic because itÕs the language of the greater you know mental health field, but its only ever just a snap shot and I encourage people to remember that - that we're seeing a person at a snapshot in time and whatever our judgements are about that despite the fact that we're working a system that pulls for judgement and diagnosis that itÕs just a snap shot. [00:25:07.06] DAVID: Interesting too. I was thinking about how - when you're looking at someone you can feel their energy. You can like feel their presence. By doing that, we as humans are judging them as therapists. We're diagnosing I guess is the word we want to use. And then from there you know you are not feeling their burden, but you are feeling their energy. You are being exposed to how they feel but biologically they're probably totally find. They probably have enough water. Their body is functioning correctly, but they are dealing with other uh stresses that may affect them in a different way. Like is this woo woo or not? But their aura might be changed. Their energy they present to people - you can feel someone is on edge. The energy of desperation is really, really insidiously difficult for that person that is experiencing it. And, and hard to be with. [00:25:55.16] I want to - I know we only have a few more minutes so I want to just bring it back to story for a second. When I have told my story out loud - instead of just in my own mind. When I have said it out loud to people that witness me and see me - and hear me and care about me - words have come out of my mouth that we're truths about my experience that I didn't even know that I knew. I did not even - have an inkling of the level of resilience that I have had. But I have expressed words that were about strength and resilience and when I heard myself say them out loud - I knew that they were true. If the therapy we provide here gives someone a container, a compassionate calm loving knowledgeable container to tell their story and to hear their truth by expressing that is - that is my - my goal and my passion and my reason for being here. And my other reason for being here and I will just be lighthearted for a second - is its fun! I love being with students. ItÕs fun. We enjoy each other. We find a way to hear the stories that sometimes have elements of darkness and pain and still be with each other in light and laughter. And, that's another really important part of teaching is how to have one foot in that world where we can really see and experience other suffering and be able to come back into the world that is light and laughter and fun and being ok ourselves. Those are some of the things I really, really want to accomplish here. [00:27:48.13] DAVID: And it sounds like earlier you were talking about the science of how a therapist goes about their work and then there is the energetic holding space and it sounds like the laughter really fits in that. The having fun you know like you could look at this job and like is this fun? But helping people is fun and its enjoyable. Its life giving. And you're giving life - itÕs like a gift that keeps on giving. [00:28:14.18] JOY: Its giving and receiving all the time. And as long as that's in balance you're ok. [00:28:21.22] DAVID: Yeah, oh my gosh itÕs so beautiful thank you. [00:28:24.11] JOY: Thanks, this was fun! [00:28:26.17] DAVID: Well, it was really nice to have you. That was Joy Redstone on our podcast. She is the Director of the Community Counseling Center and an adjunct faculty and she was also the Executive Director of the Bridge House for 7 years and I'd just like to say thank you for speaking with us today. [00:28:41.02] JOY: Thank you so much. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]