Teresa-Amy-Victoria
"Migration of the Butterfly"

[MUSIC]

Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host David Devine. And it's a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions -- Naropa is the birthplace of the modern mindfulness movement.

[MUSIC]

[00:00:45.03] 
David:
Hello, today I'd like to welcome Teresa Veramendi, Amy Buckler, and Victoria Pilar-Gonzalez to the podcast. They are here to speak about their documentary theater project, "Sanctuary" or "Santuario | Sanctuary." Thank you for coming.

ALL: Thank you for having us.

[00:01:03.06] 
David:
All right, so we got a full house here - we got three of you here.

ALL: Yes.

[00:01:06.05] 
David:
Awesome. So, I am just kind of curious how are all you connected to Naropa? How did you all meet? Where did the connection come from?

Amy:
This is Amy talking. I am connected to Naropa - I was on staff for the School of the Arts and the Jack Kerouac School for a while and I met Teresa when we were both living in Chicago. Actually prior to working on a previous theater project together -- produced and co-directed a show there. Did some work organizing with that by Chicago and then she said I am moving to Boulder - you should come with me. And I did. LAUGHS

[00:01:40.20] 
David:
Oh wow, so you met before you even came to -- Colorado?

Amy:
Yes, she - she is the reason that I ended up in Colorado. So --

[00:01:46.16] 
David:
Wonderful.

Amy:
All of this is her -- fault. LAUGHING.

Teresa:
You're welcome.

Amy:
Thank you.

[00:01:53.14]
Teresa:
I'm Teresa and I met Victoria when I first came to visit Naropa. I came during Victoria's year and there were performances - the 6 minute performances and Victoria and I met and then I decided to come here during my first year -- it was Victoria's second year. And we collaborated in various classes, but the biggest collaboration was with the beginning of this piece, which then it was just called. "Migration."

[00:02:23.07] 
David:
Ok. Great. 

Victoria:
This is Victoria by the way. In the Moment Work workshop with Lee Zanikowski and we were also working with Ben Waugh at the time and that was also the start of this project. 

[00:02:37.13] 
David:
Awesome. Thanks for sharing. So, let's talk about the project. Where did it come from? How did it come arise? Because it seems like you all -- sort of came to Naropa somehow through whatever avenue you came through, but then all of the sudden this project came about -- like where did it start?

[00:02:54.21]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
So, in the Moment Work workshop we had -- it was a three week workshop, technically four weeks, but there was a week long break where we worked on something else for that week. So, it was a little bit broken up. We just had the theme, migration, assigned to us and Teresa, Ben and I came up with drawing a parallel between the migration of Monarch butterflies and the migration of children across the U.S. Mexico border. Teresa had just seen a documentary, "Which Way Home." Which actually relates to a later part of the process when we were doing interviews last year -- that came up again. Teresa had just seen, "Which Way Home" and I really wanted to -- talk about the monarch butterflies and monarch butterflyÕs population being threatened and how they are pollinators and sort of known for the greatest migration. And so, we just sort of started honing in on that and created a 10 minute piece in the three weeks that we had for the project. Using mainly news articles and uh sort of piecing together stories out of the articles and uh crafting those 10 minutes around in the year 2014 -- that was the most significant drop in the monarch butterfly population. And it was also the same year that we had the most unaccompanied minors coming across the border. 

[00:04:41.01] 
David:
Wow, so all this came about through like a school project?

[00:04:43.19]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Yes, it was -- lead by (?) who gave all the groups of prompt of migration.  And everyone interpreted it very differently. Victoria and I are both more politically minded and social justice oriented -- so that was something that I knew would land well between us. We keep exploring that. Yeah, so we were the ones who decided to talk about immigration of human beings across the border. And the year before DACA had passed deferred action for childhood arrival and so that's why there had been a jump - actually 30 thousand more children unaccompanied children crossed the border that summer. So, this was the next spring -- that we did this project. And, when it was done, and we had performed it I think all three of us knew there was definitely enough material to do a full length piece. Like no question. It was definitely worthwhile in exploring. So, I had one more year of the MFA. And after that we got together and immediately started talking about creating this production.

[00:05:50.15]
Amy: 
And I was living with Teresa at the time. And had overheard conversations about the desire to expand it into a full length piece. This opportunity for a grant with Boedecker Foundation and collaboration with the Dairy Arts Center here in Boulder came across my inbox and I immediately emailed Teresa and Victoria and was like uh you still want to do this thing? We should apply for this grant. This feels like the right grant. And so, we did and we're finalists for the grant and then -- the grant's interview with the finalists was right after the election so the issues addressed in this piece we're really at the forefront of our minds and everyone's minds and I think that energy was certainly present in that room. The grantors in saying this project needs to happen now. And they were really enthusiastic about helping us make it happen.

[00:06:40.15] 
David:
Wonderful. Yeah, itÕs nice to see that - and just jump on that opportunity. Wonderful. Ok. So, there was a moment where you spoke about the relationship between monarch butterflies and the children -- the youth crossing the US and Mexico border. What made you realize those need to go together? What is the relationship between the butterflyÕs migration and the children's migration?

[00:07:01.13]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
There's a - a few connections actually I would say. One, is that -- humans migrate just like animals and insects. One interest was to normalize migration as behavior of life -- that was kind of a foundation of the original piece we created. A migration is life. 

[00:07:23.08]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
None of us are from Boulder. Like we all migrated here. People move for all kinds of reasons all the time. 

Exactly. And there should be free movement, right. Something that came up later actually was that we found out something about Mexican folklore which is that the monarch butterflies arrive in Mexico the very beginning of November. And itÕs the Day of the Dead and actually itÕs the day after the Day of the Dead is the Day of the Children. So, the mythology is that the monarch butterflies -- there is more than one kind of mythology about this. But one of them -- is that monarch butterflies are the spirits of dead children returning home to Mexico.

[00:08:04.23] 
David:
What?

[00:08:05.07]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Yeah. So, we actually created this entire piece and had a scene of child dying in the desert and coming back as a butterfly and we did not know the mythology. That came later.

[00:08:17.21] 
David:
Wait, what, really?

[00:08:19.13]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Really. 

It was just something about the monarch butterflies having freedom of flight and freedom of mobility and I don't remember if this was directly a part of the original piece but there are international protections for monarch butterflies while there are children dying in the desert. And, children whose names are unknown for -- whatever reason -- just a belt found with a contact's name on it. And, uh that idea of not being seen and not being noticed -- it seems like the monarch butterflies were a great way to put their stories out and into people's consciousness. Make it more a part of awareness.

[00:09:11.13] 
David:
Yeah.

[00:09:12.03]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
One thing about crafting a piece with the weightiness -- the solemnity, the heart break of this topic to give ourselves a place to land, to give ourselves a place to breath in this story. To come back to the butterflies is a way to connect and take a breath and just felt important. 

[00:09:34.09] 
David:
Seems like a very important story to be telling people to inform them and activate them in a way that they can help or just know what's going on because I don't think a lot of us know or a lot of us know too much and we're just like afraid to act or like whatever and it seems as though you're taking on the responsibility to showcase something that needs to be seen. 

[00:09:53.00]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Yeah, I think the responsibility that we've taken on is to honor those who have opened to us. And allowed us to interview them about their lives. And that's -- that's a responsibility we're carrying is to - to respect those stories and -- and share them on the biggest stage and the most stages that we can so that they are heard. So, itÕs been an interesting experience to work on this project and suddenly itÕs in the newspapers you know we've -- its cool on the one hand uh the reality of course on the border and in these detentions centers for young people is horrible. And, itÕs interesting - many people think that this is a new phenomenon but through our interviews we know that itÕs not. Children have been held for very long periods of time in immigrant detention centers since before the election. 

So, through orientation.

[00:10:50.08] 
David:
Why do you think all the sudden itÕs a hot topic. Why do you think all the sudden there are more people that are seeing what is going on. There are more witnessing what is happening compared to when it was happening, and it wasn't mainstream media? What do you think activated that?

[00:11:07.10]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Over the past year things have definitely -- accelerated. The - the zero tolerance policy that's been enacted by the current administration is an exaggeration of something that was already not in a good place. Uh so to have zero tolerance from the point of low tolerance where we were at before -- where there were kids separated -- there were kids being separated from their families. And -- you'd hear on the radio stories of moms traveling for hours just to see their son for an hour. And, that was before the zero tolerance policy and so now -- we're seeing what zero tolerance really looks like. And so, the extremity of that situation and the number of people who -- are just sort of waking up to what is happening and it - it was already unacceptable and now itÕs so completely unacceptable, but people are listening and -- itÕs hard to look at what's happening on the border. It was hard to look at it before when it -- there were -- unidentified skeletons found in the desert. But, those skeletons aren't even a part of the current dialogue. Uh really. ItÕs about the people in detention centers without even acknowledging the risk of the people who don't even make it to the detention centers.

[00:12:45.23] 
David:
Yeah, and also there is probably just like a lot of people that have lost their way many years ago. So, this has been going on for a while. This isn't like a fresh new topic that people are just talking about. This has been going on for a bit. 

[00:12:57.20]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Yeah, the wall was only built in 1994 or 1996. Ten years after Mr. Gorbachev tore down that wall -- the U.S built their own wall. 

Yeah, I think acceleration is a really good way of looking at what's happening. So, I think -- I think itÕs a crisis. And itÕs a manufactured crisis. So, there is a crisis in a few ways. There is a crisis of how people are being treated as individuals in detention and then there is the number of people are literally itÕs too much for the current system to actually be able to hold. So, there is now a big back up. There is --

[00:13:41.03] 
David:
Well, first off it seems inhumane to do what they are doing. And then on top its inhumane at the number of people they are doing it with. You know so itÕs like you're just like complexities upon complexities of how it shouldn't be going.

[00:13:54.20]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Yes. So, for example, one way that they did this is with those who are seeking asylum as refugees. So, how it has been for years is that you could come and say you're looking for asylum at any point in the border and even though you are supposed to go a legal port of entry they would generally kind of process you anyway as an asylum seeker. Part of zero tolerance is that everyone right now is basically being processed as a criminal. So, they've criminalized what is actually a misdemeanor. Crossing the border illegally is just like a traffic ticket. ItÕs actually a small crime. So, they've increased the kind of punishment for that. And then they've -- they are not really taking asylum applications -- what I have been reading is that they are turning asylum away at the ports of entry so then they have to cross illegally somewhere else. And then they are processing them as though they weren't actually refugees. 

Yeah, so there is a couple different things compounding and also just since you brought up the wall I think another kind of connection with the butterflies is that the wall has an ecological effect on the land. Beyond just on human beings and so one of the things that you see in German is that animals still will not cross the line where the Berlin wall was. They have changed a lot of their life patterns. So that's going to continue to happen in Mexico and the United States. And affecting a lot of different animals. So, one that we know of is the ocelot which is endangered and will most certainly be extinct in the United States if the wall continues to be built in a way that is planned. 

[00:15:41.06] 
David:
ItÕs kind of interesting to think that they're illegalizing migration and migration is a natural process that people, animals and insects and just the natural environments do. And, because you put a wall there doesn't mean the migration will stop between the animals or the nature or the people. Like they're still going to be other routes -- they just can't take the ones they are used to. 

[00:16:04.07]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
A woman that was interviewed said well fortunately butterflies don't recognize borders. LAUGHS. 

Yeah, they'll fly over. They can do that, right. They've got that privilege. Other animals -- like turtles -- you know there is a lot of different animals out there in the dessert that will not be able to get through. Will be drowned when there are floods. And, yeah and obviously humans can't get through that way -- but the other kind of part of this manufactured crisis is that not that many people are coming that way these days. 

Only really people who are running away from devastating situations are taking the risk of even going through Mexico because Mexico has even less tolerance than the US has. So, uh -- for a lot of people coming from South of Mexico - just going through Mexico is a huge risk to take and so crossing on foot isnÕt -- isn't a decision that anybody is making lightly.

[00:17:07.18] 
David:
Yeah, thanks for sharing. 

[00:17:10.01]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
ItÕs all interconnected.

[00:17:12.05] 
David:
It definitely is.

[00:17:12.23]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
That's the one thing I think we've been starting to explore in the piece is the more that each of us can take more than one perspective even as an artist -- like wear more than one hat in the production the better. Because this is I think one of the problems that the border creates and language difference creates is that we don't hear the stories of people who are deported back to Mexico or to Honduras. We don't hear what happens to them there. So, you know why is that -- because we've created this false boundary. And this linguistic barrier.

And something about the language too. The way that law is enforced and regulated in the USA -- there is this sort of myth of the right winged do it and in the past few months they -- Jeff Sessions changed what counts for asylum and cut out domestic violenceÕs and gang violence. And a lot of the gang violence throughout the south of the border is either a direct result of the drug war in the USA or gangs that started in the USA that are there essentially exported down. And so, but there is this incongruence with the law as its written and as its -- followed or as it plays out -- just this past year over uh one of the interviews -- one of the things that really struck me that came up was a woman whose husband was doing everything the right way and he was unable to see his mother and his father. He hadn't seen them in about 7 years from when he started doing the right way he made one mistake in going over the border before he started it. So he had to follow everything for legal citizenship to the book and he could not see his family and he went down in San Diego, California there is this park declared Friendship Park and itÕs supposed to be a bi-national park and when the law went up in the 90s the park was closed off and over recent years they open it up only on very specific dates for like once or twice a year at most. And, they arrived a week early for it to open up, so they were shouting 200 feet across the two fences at the - they were just trying to shout across to say hi. And her son was -- crying and completely devastated by seeing his grandmother sobbing unable to see her son and just the way that the families are separated isn't something that anybody can know without going through it. [00:20:03.18] So, sharing those kinds of experiences -- she in that time that I interviewed her - her viewpoint completely changed. She realized there was no right way to do it. Her husband was doing it the right way and it still caused so much pain in seeing her son heartbroken.

[00:20:24.02] 
David:
So, within your like investigation -- your research you've interviewed a bunch of people and you have multiple narratives, multiple stories that you're putting together. How did that unfold for you? How did the story itself as you were investigating -- what did that look like. Do you notice consistent narratives that people we're saying. We're you interviewing both sides? Like law makers and border patrol people and then the people who are affected by it -- like how is that process for you?

[00:20:52.07]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
We interviewed quite a range of people from very recent immigrants who had just crossed the border the day before to people who have been in the United States for some time to people who have been undocumented in the United States and then got their citizenship. We had also a tour by border patrol of the wall in San Diego -- that was very important to get that perspective and we also spoke with a few other immigration customs and border patrol officers in different circumstances and then we've also spoken with some scientists, environmental conservationists, nonprofit directors, volunteers and then also people who actually work for the butterfly sanctuaries in Mexico.  So, you have some of those interviews as well. So, quite a range and we had a set number of questions that we had prepared as a group including you know from like what do you think it means to be illegal to what gives you hope. You know what we're the circumstances of your birth? Kind of a full range and then I think we started to see certainly things coming about -- actually the theme of faith was one that emerged very clearly to us. From you know the - I think now itÕs called the Humanitarian Crisis Relief Center at Sacred Heart in McAllen, Texas that was founded to receive all these children in 2014. They still run, and they are a very Catholic organization. So, one volunteer said very beautifully -- it still really touches my heart that when she looks into the faces of these immigrants that she sees the face of God. She sees God coming to ask her for a toothbrush or for some food. Or for clothes -- clean clothes.

So, that was one kind of theme that emerged very naturally and its one reason why we decided to name the piece "Santuario" -- a sanctuary because sanctuary is kind of a religious space. A space is virtuality as well as it kind of overlapping with some of the political language of sanctuary cities and --

Butterfly sanctuary. And just sort of like a neutral place and a place without the harms of the outside world. 

[00:23:21.00] 
David:
The right to not be illegal. Wow, ok.

[00:23:25.20]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
What does it mean to be illegal? What does it mean to be a citizen. 

[00:23:29.00] 
David:
That's a good question like what does it mean to be illegal -- you cross this line that was drawn by a government or whatever and all the sudden you are categorized as something you are not when you are over there compared to over here. 

[00:23:44.08]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
And the line was actually -- the line has shifted over times. It was originally the border was the Rio Grande and the Rio Grande is not in the same place as it was a hundred years ago. Rivers migrate too. 

[00:23:57.17] 
David:
I am seeing a them here. 

[00:24:00.06]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Well it was interesting is reading one of our interviews with an immigration rights attorney -- some you know actions that humans take -- there can be illegal behaviors. But a human themselves cannot be legally -- can perform illegal actions, but to label someone illegal that is not a thing. 

[00:24:21.11] 
David:
The doing can be illegal, but the being cannot.

[00:24:25.18]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Right.

[00:24:26.19] 
David:
Wow! Sit on that one for a bit. But doing all the work you've been doing and learning what you have been learning -- is there anything that the general public is unaware of and should know about or is there anything that is just important to be said about this topic. Because I am sure there is some stuff that like that just the general population doesn't know about that we probably should - that you're collecting all these stories and you're hearing the stuff that we don't. Is there anything you'd like to share about that?

[00:25:00.08]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
One thing that won't be in the Santuario | Sanctuary production but it will be an ongoing project and ultimately end up in something else but one of the interviews we did was with a -- a woman whose parents were Coyotes or coyotaje.

[00:25:19.20] 
David:
Coyotes are the people that -- move people across the border?

[00:25:24.14]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Or boletos is another word and -- she grew up in Tijuana, Mexico and her family would take in -- families and they -- all of the people who they received they received based off of references and they made sure we're not associated with anything drug related or violence related. Everybody who they received was wanting to cross to work and this was a couple few decades ago. And, in the interview this year both she and her mother - she was a child when it was happening - her mother arrived during the interview to also share a little bit and they still see people across Southern California working. Just living their lives and working and making a living and contributing. So that was one of the last interviews we heard. One of the first interviews we had in this part is in the show that just because somebody is undocumented doesn't mean that they are not paying taxes. And, there are ways that people contribute to the benefit of the nation even -- whether or not they are documented. Just by working and doing proper paperwork and it has to do with having access to those things uh that interview was at (?) in --

[00:26:55.09]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
It was a colonia in Southern Texas. 

Not right in McAllen, but just outside of McAllen. And it was started by a group of nuns and they were addressing the needs of the community and giving people access to learn how to pay their taxes, to fill out the proper paperwork, to fill out the paperwork for DACA without that kind of organization there is no way for somebody just on the street to just know and that expectation that things be done the right way while there isn't open accessibility to that -- right way. There is a need to address it and making it more available to the people who are looking for that. And unable to find it in other ways.

[00:27:44.06]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
I think for me one thing that is like about what's happening right now -- where there is a think of understanding is about this criminalization of a misdemeanor. So, what concerns me really -- there is many layers of concern I suppose, but what I think that most people don't -- haven't understood yet is that even though they are criminalizing this misdemeanor and so they are making the punishment form much harsher they are not processing through our judicial system at that level. So, what I mean is that they are still going to immigration court where they have mass hearings with 50 people at once where they don't have a lawyer and so --

[00:28:26.22] 
David:
Processing them differently according to what the law says they should be processing them at with what they are getting.

[00:28:34.06]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Yeah so, they are processing them through immigration court which is basically like traffic court so they're in that way they are getting the amount of support that they would get for a misdemeanor however they are actually being criminalized, right? So, there is a real paradox there and each one of the should have a lawyer if we're going to treat them this way. 

[00:28:57.00]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Or not criminalization then makes it difficult if near impossible to them to immigrate legally in the future. 

Definitely. And for them to defend themselves. Like if they are in this situation -- a refugee they're fleeing gang violence and then they are taking treated as criminals separated from their children they are supposed to make an argument. They don't have a lawyer uh they don't totally understand the proceedings. That's crazy. I don't think that's any - that's not the law. I mean -- in my opinion. 

[00:29:29.19] 
David:
That is not justice.

[00:29:31.05]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
No, I don't think its justice in any form and --

Its compounding trauma on drama. 

What concerns is what we are creating in the long term. The cycles of trauma in violence to go for these children who are being traumatized and how that will play out. You know in their personal lives, professionally and politically in the future. 

[00:29:53.04] 
David:
Wow.

[00:29:53.14]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
And I think something that's been present for me and you know the gift of the community of Naropa and grounding in mindfulness is that all of this is really difficult to hold, but it demands that we hold it. It demands that we stay present. That we remain attentive and that we don't turn away or collapse into our own feelings of loss and turmoil and meeting these different organizations -- this has been going on for a long time and there are people doing really great work and how can we all lend our support to that whether its supporting any artists who are highlighting this work supporting the aid workers who are in the mix getting on the phone with your representatives -- all the time you know it demands our attention and that's hard to do but that disciplines is what's needed and itÕs going to take us all to move this. 

I actually feel because of my education at Naropa that I - I can regulate myself and have the capacity to hold these stories with a group of people and all the human responses we're going to have as we work on this project. And we have the practices. You know that's what -- I mean they are there for every day, but they are also especially there when things are hard. So, I feel more equipped to do this then I would before. 

[00:31:18.18] 
David:
This doesn't sound like easy work and there has to be some sort of filtering process to where you are able to do the work, hear the stories that you are hearing, collect the information and then move forward in a way that is going to be beneficial towards the healing of this. 

[00:31:36.02]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Yes.

Absolutely.

[00:31:37.15] 
David:
All right. So unfortunately, we've only got like a minute left and just to get this going I am curious what's next -- anything exciting coming up? Anything that you have going on just let the people know like what's to come.

[00:31:50.12]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
The world premier is September 6, 2018. 

[00:31:56.06] 
David:
All right.

[00:31:57.01]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Dairy Arts Center in Boulder. We will have two weekends. Come see. And we're also going to have a staged reading at the Piven Theater in Evanston, Illinois -- just outside of Chicago in November. November 16, 17, 18. And we are looking to take this show on the road. Uh we are looking to expand to - we have contacts in San Diego and in Mexico City that are interested in staging this piece and we wanted to migrate everywhere. So, uh we are looking for collaborators across the country who are interested in this project. 

[00:32:41.02] 
David:
Awesome. Well I really appreciate your passion, your drive -- just the fact that you are willing to sit with the hard difficult information and hear people's stories and do your research and investigate what is going on and then enlighten the people you know and then take it on the road and show people is really powerful and I just really appreciate you sharing that with us and just letting us know what is going on.

[00:33:04.13]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
Thanks for having us.

One of the ways in which we are taking responsibility with this work of art is to work with as many Latinos, Latina performers, artists as possible. None of us are going to financially benefit from this. LAUGHS. Just to be upfront we are going to be donating our proceeds to immigrant rights groups in Colorado. So, this is really a piece for the community. 

[00:33:32.23] 
David:
And if people are interested in and they just want to get a hold of you -- how would they get a hold of you if they can't come to a show or anything like that.

[00:33:38.12]
Teresa-Amy-Victoria: 
So, you can look at our website -- proyectomigracion.org

[00:33:54.05] 
David:
So, I would like to thank my guests Teresa, Amy, and Victoria for speaking with us today about their documentary theater project that they are creating Santuario Sanctuary: The Migration of Butterflies and the Youth Over the Mexico Border to the US. 

[MUSIC]  

On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates.   

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