Olivia Meikle "Gender and WomenÕs Studies" [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host David Devine. And it's a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions -- Naropa is the birthplace of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] [00:00:44.12] DAVID: Hello, today I would like to welcome Olivia Meikle to the podcast. She is an adjunct faculty member in the Interdisciplinary Studies program teaching Intro Gender and Women's Studies. And she is also a host on the podcast, "What's Her Name?" dedicated to women's history and women's voices. Awesome, so thanks for coming in today. [00:01:04.07] OLIVIA: No, thanks for having. ItÕs fun. [00:01:06.02] DAVID: Anything else you'd like to just mention about yourself? [00:01:09.02] OLIVIA: Yeah, I teach here in the interdisciplinary studies department. I teach Intro to Gender Studies, Gender and Women's Studies which is really a fun class to teach and a lot of - I love the intro class just because you get to do sort of do everything. And its - itÕs beautiful and painful trying to decide - where to go and what to leave out because you just want to start talking about everything. ItÕs really fun to sort of just blow everybody's mind every week with new information that they've never really thought about - about the world that they thought they know. [00:01:39.09] DAVID: Yeah, I am seeing this relationship between the podcast and your teaching? [00:01:44.09] OLIVIA: Yeah, definitely. [00:01:45.04] DAVID: How do the inform each other? [00:01:46.11] OLIVIA: Yeah, I think probably the two sides I think of what I feel is my mission to get more awareness of women's issues, women's voices, women's history, women's studies that we still are so far behind on knowing what we should know about the history of women in the world and the contributions of women and also just the lived experience of women and the way that it informs everything about the way our country operates, the way the world runs now. And, I really just - when my sister and - the co-host of the podcast is my sister who is a history professor. So, she is the history and I am the women's studies and together we can sort of make this really nice balance between those two things and when we were talking about how we wanted to do - you know what kind of a project we wanted to do - we both were really committed to doing something to further women's voices in the world. And the podcast just seemed like a really good way to do it because its accessible. You can go lots of different directions with you know that we'll have 20th century jazz musician and a 16th century philosopher in two weeks. [00:02:53.04] DAVID: Those are the two I listened to. [00:02:54.05] OLIVIA: Oh good! [00:02:55.23] DAVID: Who was it - Mary Lou Williams - the musician. [00:02:59.11] OLIVIA: Yes, Mary Lou Williams - the vastly underappreciated inventor of modern jazz. [00:03:04.12] DAVID: Yeah, and she played like bebop and hip hop -- [00:03:08.07] OLIVIA: Yeah, she was there -- [00:03:09.06] DAVID: Gospel. She was doing it all. [00:03:10.12] OLIVIA: Everything! And she sort of created everything. I mean she was there. She should be listed among the inventors of bebop. She should be a name that people know. You know Miles Davis and Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie and Mary Lou Williams. Those should be the ones we're talking about and we don't - we just don't know her, and she was really foundational -- [00:03:31.02] DAVID: And here you are -- [00:03:31.23] OLIVIA: In jazz music -- [00:03:32.07] DAVID: Spreading the love and the word. [00:03:33.13] OLIVIA: Yeah that's - that's the goal. We want - we want more people to - to learn these incredible women who have really shaped the world that we live in and don't get any - credit, but also just - but it sort I think cheapens our understanding of what it takes to create a culture when we're leaving out half of the people who helped create that. [00:03:57.07] DAVID: Yeah, it turns out like half the population is women isn't it? [00:03:59.06] OLIVIA: Yeah! I mean itÕs amazing. That maybe -- maybe everyone has contributed to this culture. [00:04:07.12] DAVID: Well, I really appreciate your work and I feel like itÕs very important at this time. So, I'd like to just you know say that to you. [00:04:14.02] OLIVIA: Thank you. [00:04:14.12] DAVID: So, when it comes to teaching a contemplative class and intro to gender and women's studies like how do approach that? What do you teach? How do you teach it? How is uh contemplativeness informing the class. [00:04:30.01] OLIVIA: Yeah, that's one of the things I find really interesting actually. I didn't know a lot about contemplative education until fairly recently and when I started looking into and researching it I just kept thinking well this is just women's studies. I don't think that you could teach a gender studies class effectively any way but contemplatively. And I think that all of the sort of best practices of contemplative education are what make gender studies unique and also make it possible. If you're approaching this from a lecture standpoint or from a - I'm the expert in the room standpoint or even from anything other than just really being very aware of your students, being invested in them - not just intellectually but emotionally. ItÕs not going to succeed as a class, especially an intro class. You're doing so much hard work. You're doing hard emotional work. You are breaking into traumas. I mean I try to make it very clear in class that I am not a therapist. I am happy to talk to you. I think a women's studies professor sort of know that we're going to be doing a lot of emotional labor with our students, which is also fodder for the class discussion about women doing emotional labor. [00:05:50.19] DAVID: Why do they notice? [00:05:51.16] OLIVIA: Well, I think part just the content of the class is really difficult. That when you're pointing out to people the oppression that they are internalizing and not even realizing its happening, that's always upsetting. But also, a lot of the subject material deals in real traumas in violence, in past experience that maybe are really upsetting and really do need therapists involved and that's why I love teaching at Naropa because I do have like I know that I can always just say and there are actual therapists here right on campus that can help you if this is above my pay grade. Uh but I can do some of the work of working through things that are coming up as you are realizing oh that thing that happened to me 7 years ago - that wasn't ok. But that at the moment when it reaches where I am not comfortable helping students through that anymore, that I always have that resource. [00:06:46.02] DAVID: And we do have counseling centers on -- [00:06:47.09] OLIVIA: Yeah, that I can -- [00:06:48.14] DAVID: I actually just interviewed Joy Redstone not too long ago. [00:06:50.11] OLIVIA: Oh great. Yeah, that you know it really is a reassuring thing to have in your back pocket as a women's studies teacher because you are drudging up a lot of upsetting memories sometimes. A lot of upsetting content that people have either put away or never really thought about. And then even just recognizing the terrible state of everything. Like you know we kind of - I try to alternate weeks between like everything is horrible. And, but here is some fun things as well. Because it can get really heavy really fast. And I warn students you're going to be angry a lot taking this class. And you need to make sure you're giving yourself care, but you also need to make sure you are not letting this explode out on all the people in your life who are not responsible for the patriarchy. [00:07:40.22] DAVID: What feels important too is that you are becoming aware of the information. You are soaking it in as an individual to your being and then from there you can radiate the goodness of it you know because there is a lot of information that you might not be able to swallow, but itÕs our responsibility as humans and individuals to filter the information - the external information into the internal. And then we get to show it outwardly. So - like from there it seems like the good work and - and I was also thinking you may not be a therapist but there is therapy happening. You know what I mean? Because there is a lot of emotional situations being played out and other sort of things being worked out and things you might not even notice and all of the sudden you're just like crap what was that? [00:08:27.17] OLIVIA: Yeah, and being a good women's studies instructor involves a lot of awareness of your studentsÕ emotional state that you have to be completely tuned into everyone in the room. You can't just be up there talking because someone out of your line of sight might be close to a breakdown. And you need to know - if you need to pull back on something, come back around - I mean I think especially -- [00:08:54.09] DAVID: That's contemplative. [00:08:54.20] OLIVIA: Yeah, it -- [00:08:55.18] DAVID: Being insightful. Holding a container - like understanding the class dynamics. [00:08:59.10] OLIVIA: Yeah, exactly. And, even especially - like specific practices I think that just intuitively I have done as a women's studies professor not realizing the sort of theory behind them. Like the pause you know that you ask the question and you pause. You know I think it was Richard Brown that was on the podcast talking about that - and I was nodding along going yep that is so important because especially with really personal material you have to give people space to think through if they can answer. If they can answer safely and healthily and then how much of that answer they're willing to share with the public space. [00:09:39.10] DAVID: Yeah, and Richard was talking about how the space allows people who normally don't answer questions to arise to their own answers and some of those answers are extremely intelligent and hold a lot of weight within the class and are relevant to the topic. So, he is discovering more students can come out of their mind and come into the classroom. So, holding space and pausing and just being available and not like oh no I only have two more minutes to talk about this 45-minute subject. You know what I mean? [00:10:11.14] OLIVIA: And it does happen too. I mean I think I said that yesterday in class. There is so much to cover. I really want to dig into this, but we have to move on, but - and so holding that balance is really hard to of -- because itÕs an intro class and because you could talk about literally everything. That curating in the moment how much of this material - I almost always come in with too much material on purpose because as you are doing this contemplative awareness of the classroom there might be something that you really intended to talk about that you become very aware is not wise to talk about right now. That people need to pause. That they need to process what they have heard, and they can't move onto this next thing. [00:10:49.02] DAVID: Then the skillful freestyle can come out because then you have availability to go in any direction you want, and you are there ready to do that. [00:10:56.22] OLIVIA: Exactly. You can so nope we'll skip this for next week and we'll move into this much lighter topic that everyone can have a break. [00:11:04.18] DAVID: Yeah, it seems like you're an inspirational spark you know what I mean because the intro class there is so much you can talk about. There is so many different directions you can go, but you get to be the person to spark an interest in someone. So, if someone is actually interested then they get to follow that interest and follow that further and then not take the intro class and take the next class above that. Kind of dive deeper into their passion. So -- [00:11:29.03] OLIVIA: Yeah, exactly and that's - you know that's one of my - I think notorious for constantly saying there is so much more to know about this. If this is your jam I send out extra reading lists. You know I am just mentioning things in passing -- of this article and that article and they are always like wait, what writing it - I will send a list at the end of class of all the things I touched on that you didn't have to read in case you want to. But don't feel guilty. Because there is also this I should read everything and you - you're starting. This is your first class. You've got a long time to learn all of feminism. LAUGHS. And, because its overwhelming - because it is heavy and sometimes really dark and sometimes incredibly disheartening that choosing the things that work for you - that matter to you becomes even more important you know there are four thousand ways to go out of every single class of a women's studies class or a gender studies class and that - empowering students to find the piece that spoke to them and let them go there is a really important way to enable self-care. That people can self-select which of these readings is the least harmful to me right now? But also, you know which one might challenge me and push me into something that I hadn't thought and might really change I think I am a literature - like I a literature scholar by training, but I love women's studies because you get instant gratification. I mean I firmly believe in the power of literature to change the world. But, when you are teaching women's studies you get to watch it happen in your classroom in front of you and I really enjoy that. So, also just selfishly women's studies is more fun to teach because just for even - even for myself when I think back to like pieces of literature that change my life - I didn't know they changed my life for 11 years. [00:13:19.13] And it was only retrospect that I think oh that's where I thinks this thing or learned that thing or feel this way, but my women's studies classes - I mean there is a lot of that too, but I can also identify in that moment I realized this fact about my life. And so, itÕs a fun instant gratification classroom. [00:13:38.16] DAVID: Yeah, wow. You just have like all these different uh skills and interests that kind of inform each other? [00:13:45.05] OLIVIA: Yeah and I think that's what is fun about it too is its heavy, but it also has wild variety and so if one week really isn't interesting to you the next week is going to be. That you are not - stuck in a class on Russian Literature in 3 weeks and you go oh I really hate Russian literature. That something is always going to coming up that will speak to you. In every class period there is going to be something. [00:14:08.16] DAVID: And, also just to speak to - just because a class may have some heavy information and some heavy content, emotionally strike you and kind of put you in a funny place of reflection - at Naropa I cried. I cried a lot. There was a lot of heart opening moments and to be honest those are some of my best, favorite moments of when I was just like wow. This is a moment right here. I will always remember this for the rest of my life and I am very thankful to be shown this and - blah. Just crying it out. [00:14:41.10] OLIVIA: Yeah, there is a lot of crying in women's studies. Unlike baseball there is lots of crying in women's studies. [00:14:47.21] DAVID: Oh, I see what you did there. [00:14:48.13] OLIVIA: Yeah! Yeah, but you can sort of find ways to apply whatever you are learning to whatever field you are in. You know my goal is that no matter what field - especially in an interdisciplinary studies you know another aspect if you're teaching an upper division lit class you mostly have English majors. And so, they are all coming with similar backgrounds and interest and knowledge bases and in an interdisciplinary studies class you might have three dance therapists and two religious studies, and few scientists and you know you have all of these different perspectives and so the conversations are much richer. They are much more unexpected. I never know where my students are going to go with something. That I might have this plan of here is mostly what we're going to talk about and at the end of class I am throwing my notes and going wow that was a great class. We got through nothing that I had written down and that is my goal. You know I think my goal especially in a gender studies class - my goal as a teacher is for my students to forget I am in the room. Like I would like to not participate -- [00:15:51.15] DAVID: Facilitator -- [00:15:52.04] OLIVIA: Yes! I think my job is to get them to a state and relationship with one another as a class where they can carry on the entire conversation with occasional redirects from me. And that I don't talk for an hour. That's my goal. If that happens by the end of the semester I feel like ok I have really succeeded. Because teaching is such a performative subject and that's why so many teachers are drawn to it. I personally know I had a realization a few years ago when I was sort of going through a plan your life book that I was you know how can you design your life to be perfect for you. I suddenly had this sort of embarrassing but really freeing realization that the thing I love the most about teaching is attention. And - and that's sad. Also, not shocking. [00:16:45.17] DAVID: On the subject or on you? [00:16:46.19] OLIVIA: On me. LAUGHS. I like -- [00:16:49.12] DAVID: Just to clarify. [00:16:50.13] OLIVIA: I like standing in front of room and people thinking I am smart. And it was embarrassing, and you know like you want to think that you have this noblier purpose than that and I do. I mean I love changing lives and making people into that they can have a better life. They can feel better about their experience. But also, I just really like people looking at me. And itÕs not shocking. I was a theater kid. You know this is - I really like performing. And so, that comes in pretty strong conflict with my teaching philosophy which does say that almost never is the showboating teacher doing the best job. You know that if your students are doing hero worship and you are the rockstar - you're probably short changing your students. Because itÕs not about you. It shouldn't be about you. Unless you're a famous author doing a visiting scholar then yes, fine be about you. But, especially in a gender studies class that the students need to be doing the work and not you explaining it to them. [00:17:52.21] DAVID: It seems like itÕs about the information and how we channel in. [00:17:55.17] OLIVIA: Yeah. And letting the classroom organism decide what this information means for the people in this classroom that the exact same theory reading - they might come to a completely different conclusion than next semester's class will. And letting that be valid. And letting that sit in a space of - individual learning but also you know I was just last week we were talking about halons and the concept that these collective organisms are made of all the people in the room and if - if a different person is in the room we might have a completely different experience of this class. And so, letting that sort of really organic in the biological sense and organic process of this organism that is this particular classroom - do the work of the input that they are getting this week. [00:18:48.07] DAVID: Yeah, uh one thing I was thinking about was Intro to Gender and Women's Studies is the class you teach - that inherently is interdisciplinary because when you are focusing on many different women throughout history, their stories, their struggles, their triumphs, everything they've done - there is so many different like science, music, philosophy, economics, banking - like whatever it may be - astronomy, mathematics - there is so many different avenues the mind can take. So, that's interdisciplinary. The fact that you are focusing on people who have a spectrum of ideas of directions they go in. [00:19:30.22] OLIVIA: Yeah that's why that same variety that makes the podcast fun makes the class fun that just makes the subject inherently fun. That - that you can literally go anywhere because gender has been everywhere, and we can - you know the history of the world is the history of humans trying to figure out how to deal with gender and what - what we even mean by that and its applicable that you couldn't talk about from a gender studies perspective and there might be some, but I really can't think of any. You know sometimes students are like well finance and I laugh and think oh - there is like 7 hours. Let's talk about poverty as gendered. Let's talk - you know everything we do especially in Western American construct is so strongly filtered through this dual gender idea that we have and through these really rigid boxes that we keep people in. And that the harm that that does to the way we think about the world and the harm that it does just that as long as we are preventing people from doing something that they might be brilliant at - we are losing as a society. You know if we are preventing this whole category of people from being scientists we are missing out life changing, ground breaking, noble prize winning scientists. Because there are some in there. And they'll be janitors. Or they'll be bakers. Or that - you know that won't get to do the things that they loved - and also missing out on ground breaking bakers who are not alone to be bakers. You know that - the more boxes that we put people in the more we are harming ourselves as a collective. [00:21:24.13] DAVID: Yeah, I don't fit in a box. I am not a square. I am like a sphere. I don't fit in edges. [00:21:31.16] OLIVIA: We're blobbed. We're all blobs. [00:21:33.22] DAVID: I am just amorphous blob you know. [00:21:35.08] OLIVIA: Yeah. And I really - you know I think itÕs a complicated concept because its - there are two things that you need to do. You need to get out of your box. And you also need to make sure that you are not recreating patterns of like colonial oppression on other people. That we are not saying oh well there is no categories, and everyone is the same because you know there is a phrase - solidarity is for white women that we like to say ok - we have figured out -- what feminism should be. We have figured out the problem with gender and so now we can export that everywhere and that is no different than exporting any other cultural product that we have been doing for hundreds of years. And then as soon as we - as Western white people as most of the you know feminist academic machine is in America. That we're just recreating the same patterns that we mock in Dickens' novels you know there is no difference between deciding what's right for Muslim feminists in Pakistan as a white lady in Colorado then sending off a box full of bibles in English to Pakistan you know itÕs as blind and as ridiculous. [00:22:57.19] DAVID: Yeah and how ignorant of us to show up somewhere and think our model is going to fit everywhere. [00:23:03.10] OLIVIA: Right. [00:23:04.01] DAVID: Here is our box. I hope it fits in yours? [00:23:07.07] OLIVIA: Yeah, we're not the white wizards of feminism. [00:23:11.08] DAVID: And - what's skillful is to show and just listen and empower them and as you say like the best teaching classes you have is when the students run it. So maybe that's how we need to show up with others is just like let them run it and kind of help facilitate or -- [00:23:27.20] OLIVIA: Yeah, I have actually right now my students are this week turned in their proposals for one of - I think the feminism and gender studies without action is - can be very fascinating and it could change your life personally but itÕs pretty meaningless if you are not doing the work by which I mean activism in any form - you know and so one of the projects that I give my students is a service learning action project that is as broad as possible with very specific requirements like very specific rubrics and then say anything that you can do that will satisfy these 8 requirements you can do - and trying to broaden the perspective of what is activism? What is service that you know we often think all right I need to be marching in a rally or I need to be working in a domestic violence shelter. And that there is about four hundred thousand things that you could do that further the cause of gender justice in the world and it could be art projects. It could be using your creative talents - it can be poetry. [00:24:28.02] DAVID: Literature. [00:24:28.02] OLIVIA: Yeah, it can be physical labor in the garden of a home -- of you know the domestic violence shelter or it could be data entry you know I try to give this really wide variety of options that sometimes we want our projects to be sexy and that the first women's studies action project I did as an undergrad in college - way back when. I really wanted to do something splashy and awesome, but I couldn't find anything that you know splashy and awesome projects are hard to come by and they want to train you for a while you know. And so, I ended up just doing data entry for the Catholic Community Services Women's Shelter there and it was really humbling. It taught me a very important lesson about what is important. That if you're in a similar way to teaching I think maybe has taught me this lesson that if you are showing for attention, you're showing up for people to love you - you are doing it wrong. And that, we so often especially the whole argument about marking yourself as an ally, as an identity and as an ally with whatever movement - and that's fine as long as what you mean by ally is listening and doing what they tell me, right? That we need to be working with and for marginalized populations and not at them and far too often we're working at groups that we would you know a student would come up with an action project that I am going to go and do this thing for the domestic violence shelter, but that's not what they need and itÕs not what they want. And you are not helping - you're creating more problems and so part of the job and you know I try to make really clear - part of this assignment wants you to do the work. I want you to do the action. I want you to be involved, but I want you to learn how to be effective in planning the action. That showing up and doing the thing - if you're in the rallying that 500 hours of work went into preparing that rally. And that you need to know how to do the non-sexy, non-glorious hard work of behind the scenes work for activism whatever that looks like. [00:26:37.02] [00:26:38.04] DAVID: Wow. Sounds like a lot of work. [00:26:40.11] OLIVIA: Yeah, and itÕs always fun. The projects are always surprising. And, every time coming up with things that I never would have thought to do. We have a student who is -- who is working on dance therapy in prisons. And I have a student who is working - I have three students who are doing an art project that's going to be sort of a oh what is it - itÕs an art project / performance art / social experiment / I am not even sure really what it is. And uh - that they are going to do on Pearl Street next month and try to gauge some public reaction around gender categories. [00:27:22.04] DAVID: And just so everyone knows - Pearl Street is in Boulder. So, if you just happen to be in Boulder come on down. [00:27:26.11] OLIVIA: The famous pedestrian shopping district in Boulder. [00:27:29.10] DAVID: So, we have like a minute - couple minutes left. I just want to - I just want to ask you is there anything interesting throughout your women's studies history, searching your podcast information that you go through - anything interesting you want to leave us with that you found? [00:27:45.04] OLIVIA: Yeah. I think that the thing that has been - you know we have been doing this podcast for 6 weeks officially airing but really 6 months behind the scenes getting everything ready and the really steep learning curve of two humanities professors learning to audio edit and - and record. And the mysteries of computer editing and all of these things, but really what I think has surprised me the most is - how invested I have gotten in the lives of this women that -- who have been dead for 400 years. And I get really angry on their behalf or I get really you know and some of the podcasts I think we've had people ask are these staged - are you like setting up reactions. And we're really not. You know the idea is that one of us is telling - we're interviewing amazing guests who have been really lucky to get incredible guests. We have Carol Bash who is a documentary film maker who has had a couple documentaries on PBS and just incredible. We've had philosophy professors and authors. We've had Peter Marshall who is kind of an academic giant in capital letters and in British history. And then we've had you know the curator of the Pearl de Vere brothel museum in Cripple Creek, Colorado and so the wild variety of ways to tell these women's stories that we can be very academic. We can be asking these very academic, very well-known scholars and have a brilliant fascinating conversation and then talk to a woman who has just spent her life trying to preserve the legacy of a famous madam. And have a brilliant fascinating conversation and that - that you know when we started we kind of laughed. Let's try to be all things to all people. Because that's easy. But we wanted it to be something that is academically viable. You could use this in an undergrad and that also that just regular people could enjoy this because you know there are a lot of academic history podcasts that I really enjoyed but many people will be like I don't understand any of the jargon that's happening here. And so, itÕs been nice to feel like we have struck that balance based on our reader responses. Which is nice. Our listener responses. But, really like the response that you will hear from us when you know when we are so relieved or so angry or so happy that these women finally got what they wanted or didn't get what they want or were just crushed by the machine. That they come to life in a way that sounds really sort of -- [00:30:19.16] DAVID: They really do come to life on the podcast. [00:30:21.06] OLIVIA: ItÕs almost a really you know oh bring history to life. But, that I feel I know these women and its heartbreaking and beautiful and - and it just reminds me how - how much we're missing by - by not knowing the stories of these women and by uh - I think one of my very favorite TED talks that I use in very class is Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie who is a Nigerian writer and itÕs called, The Danger of a Single Story. Everyone should go watch it. ItÕs the best TED Talk ever and I watch it like 6 times a year and she talks about the problem with stereotypes is not that they are wrong itÕs that they are incomplete. That as long as we only have one story about anything. If we have one story about what Africa. Or we have one story about what the 16th century was -- [00:31:06.11] DAVID: Kind of like a rainbow with one color. [00:31:07.23] OLIVIA: Yeah, that you can't know something you know, and she uses this great example of someone reading one of her books and saying itÕs so sad that Nigerian men all beat their wives because the character in this book beats his wife. And she says you know I read a book called, American Psycho, and itÕs so sad that all white American men are serial killers and that itÕs so easy for us to not understand that we're generalizing the world. That our perspective is normal and everything else is -- is you know situated but that the more stories we have from women from all of history - the more we can understand the context of the other stories that we do. If we are only listening to the stories of George Washington and we're not listening to the stories of Martha and all of the women surrounding all of the figures and especially you know we call it, "What's Her Name" because the idea is that these are women that you should know but you don't - that even in the context of women's history we hear the same 8 stories now. We've like committed. We are going to hear about Marie Curry. And we're going to hear about Harriet Tubman and we're -- but there is so many other people that we're not hearing and that the more context you give to your knowledge just the sort of better knower you can be. [00:32:23.15] DAVID: Yeah. Awesome. Your passion just shines through and itÕs so yummy and good. [00:32:29.20] OLIVIA: The lack of enthusiasm is never a problem. [00:32:31.20] DAVID: And uh that's our time right now, but I feel like you and I can just kind of just go on forever, but I really appreciate you coming in. [00:32:38.13] OLIVIA: Sure. Yeah. Thank you. [00:32:40.10] DAVID: And so that was Olivia Meikle. She is an adjunct faculty member in the Interdisciplinary Studies program teaching in the Gender and Women's Studies and also running a podcast called, "What's Her Name." So, please check that out. And thanks for speaking with us today. [00:32:54.17] OLIVIA: Sure. Thank you. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]