Mark Miller
"Contemplative Approaches to Music and Improv"


[MUSIC]  

Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa.  A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado.   I'm your host, David Devine. And itÕs a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions - Naropa is the birth place of the modern mindfulness movement.   

[MUSIC] 

[00:00:45.00] 
DAVID: 
Hello, today I'd like to welcome Mark Miller to the podcast. Mark is the chair of the music program and a core faculty member. He is also a long time standing member of the Naropa community. And we'd like to welcome him.

[00:00:56.18] 
MARK:
Thank you very much. Thank you for inviting me. 

[00:00:59.09] 
DAVID: 
Yes! I have been wanting to talk to you for a while. I also when I was a student here I had a journey with you being a musician and just kind of like being part of the community. So, it feels kind of fun to speak with you again on this level. 

[00:01:12.08] 
MARK:
Sounds great.

[00:01:13.03] 
DAVID: 
So, is there anything you'd like to highlight about yourself? Maybe give some insight into who you are, what you've done, kind of what you do here?

[00:01:21.06] 
MARK:
Uh, well I can try. I'm a flute and saxophone player. I also play the Japanese shakuhachi which is the traditional bamboo flute of Japan. And, this instrument is associated with Zen Buddhism in Japan historically, but my roots are really in classical flute to begin with. My mother is a classical flutist and I started playing in high school. Uh and then when I was in - high school also, I - fell in love with vocal music. I was singing in the high school acapella choir singing Bach's - some great music. When I graduated from high school I thought I wanted to be a high school choir director. That was my career path. But then, somebody turned me onto jazz and -- uh yeah...big trouble. At that point, I decided to take up the saxophone and was listening to uh John Coltrane and Sonny Rollins, and Miles Davis and so I really fell in love pretty hard with that music. When I was in my early 20s - and so decided that that would be my - my passion and my path would be to be an improviser in the jazz tradition and since I was in high school in the late 60s I was listening to the contemporary music of that time, which was quite wild and -- very improvisational - Coltrane brought in an element of spirituality to the - to the jazz world which was very powerful for a lot of people. 

So, falling in love with that music uh I am still there. You know I am still an improvising saxophone and flute player. 

[00:02:58.06] 
DAVID: 
Yeah, and if I understand this correctly - you are also a practitioner of Zen or like what is it that you practice?

[00:03:05.02] 
MARK:
Yeah, I would say I am a meditator. I have a meditation practice and itÕs in the Zen tradition which is a little unusual at Naropa I guess. ItÕs not part of the Shambhala tradition. Uh the Zen teacher - Bernie Glassman came to Naropa and offered a week long basically meditation retreat sort of - an introduction to his view of Zen practice and I liked it. It seemed to fit really well. So, I started working with his wife, Jishu Holmes. So, my perspective on contemplative practice really comes from the Zen peacemaker order which is Bernie Glassman and - and Jishu Holmes and I like the inner connection of - contemplative practice in my case Zen practice and a contemplative approach to music making. I - you know they are different - meditation and music are not the same thing, but I feel like the insights that I gain in the one tradition show up in the other tradition so if I learn something about Zen practice - it also shows up in my music. And it becomes part of how I teach.

[00:04:08.22] 
DAVID: 
Interesting. And just so, everyone out there knows that's listening that may not know you - which is probably most of them -- is Mark is an extremely Zen person. Like when you see him - when you feel his energy he is very well put together -- calm, collective and what's interesting is it also shows up in your music. ItÕs just how you - the space you hold sonically and also physically - there is something extremely powerful in that. And I've seen you perform many times. You're - you always kind of show up to the Naropa events and you got your flute and you got your sax and you're always being asked to play it and its just such an honor to watch you and such a beautiful thing to listen to at the same time and so I don't know - I just feel like people need to know that.

[00:04:53.04] 
MARK:
Thank you, I appreciate that.

[00:04:54.08] 
DAVID: 
So, itÕs real interesting to see how the meditation practice and the music kind of come together even though there is a little bit of a different tree branch but still from the same root. 

[00:05:05.00] 
MARK:
Yeah, I would say that improvisation is a wonderful contemplative practice. Its - itÕs a mindfulness practice. It - which means that - itÕs a discipline that has to do with paying attention in a very precise way to what's going on in the present moment. So, showing up -- being open to whatever is happening musically to whatever my colleagues are playing or to the environment of the room, the acoustics, the audience, that sort of thing. And, really drawing inspiration from - from that. From what's going on right now - both internally in terms of my imagination uh my emotional state but also externally - what are my compatriots playing. So, paying attention to all of that requires a hundred percent concentration. So, I don't know maybe that's what you're picking up on is that level of uh attention I think really. Because you have to - music happens so quickly your intellectual mind really can't keep up with it you know like the brain can't be analyzing and explaining and interpreting why you're playing. So, you just have to play. To me that means you show up and - you play who you are. I am showing exactly what is going on with me when I am showing up in music.

And also, like I said listening to my - my co-workers - you know the base player and the drummer and the piano player, the vocalists and incorporating what they are doing into the larger piece of music to me in a very compositional way. So, itÕs not just -- playing emotionally, 5 people just doing their thing - its 5 people constructing a piece of music that has very clear form. You know there will be ideas that are presented and get to developed and there is a certain kind of feel to each piece as it comes, and we try to stay within that world and develop that world of music that is happening in the present moment.

[00:07:08.17] 
DAVID: 
Yeah. And when it comes to music its extremely present. ItÕs one of those arts that you are performing at that moment. So, when you are drumming, when you are playing a flute. When you are playing guitar - you're performing that action in that moment but when you're improving you're like on the fly performing. You have to be so in tuned with the music and with the community of artists that you are playing with that -- you just have to kind of like go for it. ItÕs not this like I know what's going. I know what I am going hit because I know this song - itÕs the improve of it just takes over you. There is a lot of magic that is created within that.

[00:07:49.02] 
MARK:
Yeah, I think so. And that's what I love about it. I mean that's why I do it is there is that sense of magic where something is being born right in front of you that wasn't there before. It in a sense the music comes out of nothing. It comes out of your stillness. And it comes out of our sense of being whoever we are. And, there is - there is - its - itÕs amazing. ItÕs kind of incredible what happens on stage. 

[00:08:14.14] 
DAVID: 
And what's amazing as a viewer of amazing improv is watching the artist have a moment where they are like this is awesome. They are like wow - look where we are at and the whole room is vibrating in such a way - everyone is feeling it at the same time and just kind of nodding their head like I like this. Very cool.

[00:08:34.14] 
MARK:
And I think also like other forms of contemplative practice - there are those really beautiful and inspired moments, but there are also times when you don't know what's happening or there is something confusing going on. Or maybe I show up and I am - you know I am not at the top of my game. But, I know I can still make music no matter what's - what's going on. So, as they say in the Zen tradition as Bernie Glassman has said - itÕs like you're cooking a meal and you use the ingredients that are there and that's always changing. There are different ingredients from time to time from night to night. You don't show up with the same inspiration. The same ideas.

[00:09:15.07] 
DAVID: 
Yeah. So, when you are improving with other musicians and you do hit a moment of unsureness - how do you remedy that? What do you do as an artist?

[00:09:26.05] 
MARK:
You know, I think for one thing I have total trust that it will work out. I don't abandon whatever is going on. In a sense I embrace that moment of uncertainty or ambiguity because I know something will evolve out of it. Something will come out of it and in fact, you know as Trungpa Rinpoche was quoted or is often quoted - chaos is extremely good news, you know. And if there is chaos happening in the music or there is ambiguity, I just know that it will - it will work out. I trust the people I am playing with. I trust myself. I might wait - you know until things begin to clarify. If I am unsure about what to play I won't play. I will just wait. It means itÕs a moment to rest in that - rest in the ambiguity. Rest in the faith that something will work out. Wait, and then when something emerges I will play. 

[00:10:20.14] 
DAVID: 
Yeah, and you are not - you are not having this emotion or feeling where you're like oh no something must be played - so you're not rushing to jump in. You're - you're feeling the moment out you know.

[00:10:30.21] 
MARK:
Yes, that takes a lot of practice to get to that point where you are willing to hang out in that uncertainty and not rush in and just try any old thing because if you do that - its first of all there is something inauthentic about that. Just throwing something against the wall to see if it will stick. I would rather wait until I am more sure that the thing I am going to play is the thing that is needed in the moment. 

[00:10:55.13] 
DAVID: 
I wonder if having chaos has allowance for more ingredients. 

[00:11:01.20] 
MARK:
Yeah! Sure. 

[00:11:02.17] 
DAVID: 
There is more things to cook with once you got the chaos.

[00:11:05.08] 
MARK:
Definitely. And another word for chaos is mystery. You know mystery - mystery is something that I want to experience in art. You know I don't want to know exactly what's happening all the time that would be really boring. 

[00:11:17.21] 
DAVID: 
Yeah. No. We want amazing magical music - not boring music.

[00:11:21.08] 
MARK:
That's right. 

[00:11:22.23] 
DAVID: 
So, you teach in the music department here at Naropa. And - as I actually took the music department - it was one of the most transformational experiences I've had musically because it might have been the first time I had to write an essay about music and not actually just perform music. That's a very interesting approach and just -- diving deeper into listening so here at Naropa we have the contemplative model - what I'd like to ask you - IÕd like to dive into this a little deep - and understand what is the difference between teaching music and teaching music with a contemplative model? How does that show up for you?

[00:12:04.13] 
MARK:
Yeah, that's a great question. And uh at Naropa we're constantly asking ourselves - this question. What is contemplative education? What do we mean by that? And I think that there are some principles that we could point to that highlight a definition of contemplative approaches to creativity and to teaching. Uh some of them I've already talked about. I'm - itÕs important to in the classroom be present with the students and show up exactly who - as who I am. So, I think of teaching as partly - partly its performance you know it - but itÕs partly me sharing who I am with them. And, not just delivering information. I am willing to talk about my experience especially around creativity and improvisation. Uh - I am willing to share my doubt. And confusion when that comes up in classroom. Because I want to create an environment and I think this is important in contemplative education where students can show up as themselves. And can - represent who they are. 

Can learn about who they are. So, they are not just learning about the history of music. They're also - learning about themselves. They are developing an artistic point of view of music. They are not just sponges absorbing stuff. We want to train artists really - not technicians. So, you know the conservatory approach is often - very technical. ItÕs about developing really high levels of technique and abilities to play music in many different styles. And that's fantastic. 

But, we - we at Naropa as a more contemplative approach also encourage students to make their own music. As a matter of fact, the program is based on that. ItÕs based on students composing, creating, improvising music that's meaningful to them. That's not just important because it has historical significance. So, this reliance on one's own experience is very important. I would say also that learning about how to work with others is an extremely part of a contemplative approach to music.

So, we encourage students to collaborate and to learn what that means. You know what does it mean -- an ensemble setting let's say when you're creating an original piece of music when people have different ideas about what should happen you have to learn to listen to others - not react when something strange or uncomfortable happens. And work together to create what I was talking about before a composition that makes sense. It has clear form. It has elements that relate to one another in a clear way.

Sometimes that's a matter of negotiation. Often, itÕs a matter of being - just being able to say yes to - to the people you're working with. Yes, let's try that idea. Yes, I am willing to support you in what you are doing. 

[00:15:04.17] 
DAVID: 
Mystery. Saying yes to the mystery. Feeling uncomfortable. Being ok with that. I like that.

[00:15:10.20] 
MARK:
And there is a - there is an element. We were talking a lot about intuition and creativity and being in the moment. There in addition there is an element of critical analyst that has to happen. So, clearer thinking, learning about the history of music so you can understand what you're doing in the context of what your ancestors have done is really important. 

Music theory is important. ItÕs a way of checking out what people have done before and what seems to have worked for them, so you know some of those things might work for you. If you - if you learn about them. Don't have to make it up all on your own. So, the - all that in the traditional educational world is still important to what we do at Naropa, but overall I'd say contemplative education is about - finding out about yourself also. So, itÕs not just finding out what's in the book. 

[00:16:08.05] 
DAVID: 
Very cool. Thank you for sharing. Uh - I did an interview with Jerry Grinelli who is a long time community member of Naropa. He is a great drummer, jazz drummer you can say and then Paul Fowler who is also a core faculty member here as well who - just an amazing music and when I was talking to them - Jerry said - he is like anybody can play! Anybody can play you know you have the notes, you have the tablature - people can show up and do that. He was - kind of tapping into this who are you as the artist. And I feel like that's kind of what you were talking about is - is being in the moment - developing the art and being ok with mystery because if I am playing this chord to that chord - like anybody can figure that out. The body will learn, but itÕs the art that kind of comes out of that and who you are and how you show up and how we're developing all together. 

[00:17:04.21] 
MARK:
Yeah, I'd say there is great mystery in discovering who we are. We say know yourself is a very important principle, but we never really know ourselves completely. Uh - there is a lot to be explored. There is a lot to be appreciated and to be curious about so uh those are two words that I like a lot. Appreciation and curiosity. So, I am curious about my own experience. I am curious about your experience if we're playing together. I want to find out more about who you are. And I want to find out who we are together as an ensemble. Playing with - you mentioned Jerry. Jerry is a fantastically creative drummer. I just love playing with Jerry. Because you never know what's going to happen you know. ItÕs a real sense of exploration or journey when you start to play with him. ItÕs not totally predictable and if you're - if you're playing composed music which is also wonderful if you're playing Beethoven or something. You kind of know what's going to happen. I mean there is some of course there is some creative input and variation that happens, but basically you know when you get to the final bar the journey is over. And, you know you've - you've done something very specific in particular but with improvisation - there is a lot of mystery. There is a lot of openness and exploration curiosity. 

[00:18:22.10] 
DAVID: 
I've seen Jerry play and uh some of the other Naropa faculty members play together and it was so improv-ed that he got up from his chair and started playing on the brick wall. He liked walked over the brick wall and started playing - he started playing on some other stuff that wasn't even a drum set and it was just like wow he is - he is holding the beat down. He has still got it and it was - it was very - it kind of like ripped you away from the expectations of what improve could be and even opened it up further. ItÕs very cool. 

[00:18:53.07] 
MARK:
Yeah, there is also a great sense of uh I appreciate improvisation that has a sense of humor and Jerry also has a wonderful sense of humor.

[00:19:01.14] 
DAVID: 
Yeah, music is fun and beautiful, and we can just ride it out. So, I'd love to explore you know because we are a very unique school. We have a very unique model of education. What kind of students show up to the music department. Like - are you notice any consistencies and characteristics, genres of music likes - you know what kind of student shows up to a contemplative music program?

[00:19:28.23] 
MARK:
Yeah, I think we have wonderful students. I love the students that we have in our program and at Naropa in general. They are people who reflect some of the qualities that I have talked about. They are willing to - they are very interested in community. So, they are willing to collaborate with others. They are very curious about the world. They are willing to show up for the most part. I have taught workshops at lots of other places and you know they are always - some students who are enthusiastic and then there are a few people who are kind of in the back and they're checking their phone or - whatever, but I find that Naropa students not that they don't check their phone, but they are there to learn. They are there because they are interested. They are there because they want to be there. In general, I'd say they're interested in there are a lot of singer song writer, composer people. There are people working in - in the electronic world. 

They're interested in recording. They're interested in world music traditions to use that term so we have you know we offer an African drumming ensemble, Brazilian -- 

[00:20:32.05] 
DAVID: 
Which is great - I've taken both of those classes. Some of my favorites.

[00:20:36.07] 
MARK:
Yeah, so you're a typical Naropa student.  Or you were. You were interested in that stuff. And then they are interested in making their own music. They - they may be students who -- wouldn't be that happy in a traditional university or a conservatory setting where the path is laid out very clearly for what you need to learn - the pieces you need to learn, the repertoire. There are high levels of expectation around technique, but not that much emphasis on an individualÕs creative point of view. And at Naropa - you have to do all of your own creative point of view. Your senior project is about your music. ItÕs not about - the jazz repertoire or the classical repertoire.

[00:21:20.03] 
DAVID: 
So, itÕs not about hitting wrong notes or anything like that. ItÕs about -- exploring the artistry you're developing. 

[00:21:25.11] 
MARK:
Yeah, and part of that - I mean part of playing your own music does have to do with right and wrong notes so to speak. You know - you want to be able - whatever music you're making you want to be able to make it in as articulate a way as possible. So, to play clearly -- to make clear created decisions about this not that is - is important when you're performing. You know you want to play well. So, technique is important. 

[00:21:52.13] 
DAVID: 
There is a mild outline in which we need to follow - which works but at the same time art is open to any interpretation. 

[00:22:01.00] 
MARK:
Yeah, I'd say the important thing is again to develop your point of view about it. So, itÕs not so much that eh you know anything goes - but as individuals we have - like an individual aesthetic and clear sense of - and passion for what you want to make. You know so itÕs important to make creative decisions about where you're going. Improvisation that you know in the beginning - beginning improvisers will kind of like like I was saying before - throw stuff against the wall just to see what will stick. So, they try a little of this ad they try a little of that. To me that's not - highly developed improvisation. Highly developed improvisation is what Cheri Grinelli call spontaneous composition. So, you're composing something very clear and definite in the moment. Although there is a lot of - you know there is a lot of unknown and there are places of ambiguity, but you know itÕs like this food is definitely going to taste like this. You know itÕs a dessert. ItÕs not - you know itÕs not a salad. Because we're working on sweetness right now. And then, later you will play a piece that has a very different quality, but it has also a sense of some focus and identity that's quite compositional and clear. 

[00:23:19.04] 
DAVID: 
How long have you worked in the music program here?

[00:23:21.04] 
MARK:
I think let's see I've been teaching full time for 23 years and but I taught part time before that. So, I've been around for a long time.

[00:23:31.10] 
DAVID: 
And this leads to my question is how has your music changed as an artist -- working in the contemplative model. What have you noticed with bringing your artistry to the music, to the students and how has that changed you?

[00:23:47.00] 
MARK:
I think if anything - contemplative practice has encouraged me - to be more who I am. And to have more confidence in what feels true and actual and real to me in the moment. Rather than relying on what I was taught or what it says in the book or something like that. Or you know what another artist has done. So, I love - as I said I love John Coltrane, but I am not trying to play like John Coltrane. I am trying to play like me. So, contemplative practice I think emphasizes that sort of self-confidence -- and presence like and everything will be ok. All I have to do is show up.

[00:24:31.21] 
DAVID: 
Everything is ok.

[00:24:34.15] 
MARK:
Just be yourself.

[00:24:34.20] 
DAVID: 
As long as we're making music.  Awesome. How long would you say you've been playing music for? It seems like you've been doing that a long time right?

[00:24:42.15] 
MARK:
Really long time. Since I was 8 years old.

[00:24:44.18] 
DAVID: 
What instrument are you drawn to the most?

[00:24:48.10] 
MARK:
Well, I think saxophone is really the - would be the last instrument that I would throw over the side. If we were sinking. Flute is also important, but saxophone to me is the most flexible and expressive instrument. I also love the shakuhachi flute as I was saying in the beginning - the Japanese bamboo flute. I love that because that tradition is so different from the Western - from my Western training. So, I had to - in learning to play that instrument I had to learn a whole new approach to flute playing. It has a different sense of tambour or quality of sound and it has - there is a very different sense of pitch. Just a whole different aesthetic approach in playing shakuhachi its -- uh you know like the phrase that you play really sort of begins and ends as long as the breath. So, there is a sense of synchronization with - with breathing which is very contemplative meditative. So, there is not a sense of pulse - like a strong rhythmic pulse. ItÕs more like the rhythm of the breath is what guides me in that playing. 

[00:26:00.01] 
DAVID: 
ItÕs a very exotic instrument to experience maybe not in other parts of the world, but for us it feels very exotic and its really fun and beautiful to listen to. ItÕs very heart opening and it kind of makes you want to tap in and sit down and kind of relax and - I never really thought of it as hey - breath oriented - well I mean obviously it is because it takes the breath but as - as a drummer you give me a metronome we're good - but as a flute player - one who follows the breath - the metronome is - is within. And itÕs not so precise and it feels really nice to kind of flow with that a little bit more. 

[00:26:43.17] 
MARK:
I'd say that's one thing I really like about it. And it does have a very -- to our ears it sounds very exotic. Uh partly because we're familiar with it of course. Uh but I think just in general it sort of has this uh very -- peaceful haunting mysterious quality but it affects - it seems to affect everybody who hears it in a certain way. Because it makes - as you say it makes you kind of sit down, relax, breathe - itÕs a very meditative kind of sound. And, itÕs really hard to play. ItÕs hard to pull it off. So - and I love the challenge of engaging with that instrument in that tradition. 

[00:27:29.03] 
DAVID: 
It makes me think of like its beautifully melancholy. I like the - what I am really drawn to with music is when I feel something uncertain within my being. But the only way to go is - up in a good direction when I am - when I feel kind of low, but I can - I can fix that. There is something weirdly pleasing to me about that. I don't know. It might not be for everyone. 

[00:27:58.21] 
MARK:
I like it.

[00:28:00.03] 
DAVID: 
So, I think that is our time. And I would just really like to thank you for speaking with us. It was - itÕs really interesting to tap into the contemplative music. So --

[00:28:09.21] 
MARK:
Well, it was absolutely my pleasure. Thanks for inviting me. 

[00:28:12.13] 
DAVID: 
Yes. So, I'd like to thank Mark Miller. He is a chair of the music program here at Naropa University and also a core faculty member. So, thank you for speaking with us.

[00:28:24.20] 
MARK:
My pleasure.

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On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates.   

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