Dr. Itai Ivtzan "The discovery of Meaning and Purpose" [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host David Devine. And it's a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions -- Naropa is the birthplace of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] [00:00:45.17] DAVID: Hello. Today I'd like to welcome Itai Ivtzan to the podcast. Itai is an associate professor teaching in the mindfulness based transpersonal counseling program. He's also spoken at numerous TEDx events. So welcome. [00:01:00.05] ITAI IVTZAN: Hello David. [00:01:01.20] DAVID: How are you doing today? [00:01:02.09] ITAI IVTZAN: I feel -- I feel good. The semester has just ended. [00:01:08.16] DAVID: Yes. [00:01:08.16] ITAI IVTZAN: And teaching was a wonderful experience. And at the same time, it's all consuming. It takes every bit of my energy and time. And now that the semester has ended the space for adventures and projects and things that kind of make my -- make my heart kind of dance. [00:01:34.03] DAVID: I love projects and special products and just things that make the heart dance. Yes. Awesome. So, tell me a little bit about yourself. Anything that I missed in my really short intro and also maybe you can go into the journey. How did you get Naropa? I know you have a fun story that you want to tell us. So, I'm really excited to hear about that. [00:01:50.13] ITAI IVTZAN: Yes. So, I spent the last 20 years bringing together psychology and spirituality. For me, those are two incredibly beautiful disciplines. And each of them is offering us a gift. I feel as if psychology is more of the kind of mind oriented discipline while spiritual is inviting us to move beyond the mind and beyond the definitions of a self. And what people usually do is they stick to one of those -- they choose one of those. And I feel that by doing that we narrow our experience of life. We narrow the fullest potential of what life could be for us. And then when we bring them together -- when we do marry them we get this incredible explosion of potentials. Right, that's -- that's what I -- that's what I love. If I'm thinking like what do -- as in a single sentence, then I would say I marry psychology and spirituality so that I could invite myself and as many people as possible to live as fully as we can. [00:02:55.14] DAVID: I love that. Awesome. [00:02:59.12] ITAI IVTZAN: Cool. And going back to kind of where it all started. I was always interested -- I mean looking back always interested in psychology in spirituality but when I was 20 I was traveling in China. And I was in -- I think it was Saskatchewan province and I was climbing this very, very high mountain. And by the time I've reached the top of the mountain it was too late in the evening and I've realized uh oh there's just no way for me to go back down on time because it will be really dark in within an hour. So, I'm looking around and there's literally nothing but nature and a Buddhist monastery. That's all there is on top of that mountain. And you know -- you know I cannot tell you what I've eaten for breakfast today, but I can tell you how the wooden gate looked like calm at that monastery 20 years ago. It was huge and beautiful and I'm knocking at that gate and the monks open. And I do not speak a single word in (?) and they don't speak any English either. So, using my hands and a smile I ask for a place to stay. That night, right. So, they were very kind. They were super kind. They offered me this tiny room with you know with a little bed and literally that is it. So, I going to bed -- I go to sleep. And around 4:00 a.m. I hear chanting. Now back then I wasn't really sure like what is it -- what's going on and half asleep. I'm kind of walking down the stairs and I find myself in the meditation hall and there were dozens of monks there chanting and I just joined them. You know it just felt -- it just felt right. So, I joined them. And they were chanting and then they were doing some walking meditation and then there was some sitting, breathing and I joined it all. And to be honest I don't know how much time the whole thing took. But I do know that when this session ended I wasn't the same Itai who went into that session. I felt something. You know sometimes we have those little junctions in life. Where you do -- you do a certain session, you meet a certain person -- you go through something -- you have an accident. I know something happens and looking back you realize this is a huge turning point. So, that was the huge turning point for me because I finished that session and I felt what I experienced right now is something I want to befriend. It's something I didn't even know is sitting within me. I might have read about it or talked about it. We all know the difference between right -- talking about an experiencing. So, I might have talked about, but I've never met it the way I just met it. So, I want to do anything in my power to make sure that I strengthen that relationship with this experience. It was something that went so far beyond what I thought of as Itai -- and you know we talked about the fact that I teach the mindfulness based transpersonal counseling program and that's the reason I love transpersonal psychology so much because it doesn't hold us back from everything that we are. It doesn't hold us back into only our mind or only our emotions, only our body or only our spirit. It brings all of them together and that's what I felt back then. So, I asked the monks to stay. I stayed there, and I spend this time reading and meditating and it was it was incredible! [00:06:42.09] DAVID: How long do you stay there? [00:06:42.23] ITAI IVTZAN: I stayed there for a couple of months. It was very powerful, and I feel it had very important impact on my relationship with the practice of meditation. Because one of the most important things I took from that monastery -- from the teachings, from the interactions I had with the monks was the quality of compassion and kindness and joy -- that was kind of radiating from everyone there. That monastery -- that felt so meaningful to me. It had a huge impact on my actual career because what happened was that I went back to the kind of Western world and I said OK this is what I want to do, right. I want it I want to share -- you know when we find something beautiful I think one of the almost instinctive needs is I want to share this. So, I went back to the Western world. I wrote my Ph.D. I became a university professor and I was researching and teaching mindfulness. This is like at the heart of my work. And I found something that -- and it took me years to -- to realize it but I found something that really blew my mind. Something about our relationship with mindfulness in the West. So, what I found was -- maybe I'll start by saying that I -- I used to go to a lot of say conferences or I run workshops, or I run retreats and people would come to me -- different courses, different places and they would say something like you know all this mindfulness stuff this is all very interesting and it sounds, you know, like a very beneficial practice. But, to be honest they said, we don't experience a lot of stress or a lot of anxiety or any depression. So, we don't need mindfulness. [00:08:37.20] DAVID: What? [00:08:38.06] ITAI IVTZAN: Right? What? OK no, this what took years to kick in. At the beginning I was like OK I get it, right. And with time there was like this red light kind of turning on and off in my head saying Itai observe this -- this is meaningful. Listen carefully. The message here is very important. And obviously the message they were sharing with me is that as long as they don't deal with any psychological discomfort -- they don't need mindfulness. And if you think about it this is the message we share with people in relation to mindfulness in the West. That the message is that mindfulness is something we use to deal with our deficiencies. Something is wrong. We bring in mindfulness -- whether psychologically or physiologically something isn't going right for us we bring in mindfulness to kind of save the day. Now, just to avoid any confusion I think mindfulness for those things is wonderful. Right, so you know mindfulness is healing for our experience of kind of -- stressful anxiety filled mind in the West. So, this is beautiful. However, I feel this is such a limited way of thinking about mindfulness. [00:10:00.16] DAVID: We're almost looking at like a remedy instead of a life practice. That's awesome. I love your story too. It's so beautiful. I didn't realize you would stay up there a couple of months. I thought you're going to tell me like a couple days or a week or something -- you were just soaking it in. [00:10:13.11] ITAI IVTZAN: I was. Just to kind of finalize that point -- what I took from the practice there at the monastery is a relationship between mindfulness and happiness. And mindfulness and hope and mindfulness and a flow. You know there are so many beautiful psychological concepts that mindfulness really works with and I just think that in order for us to have a healthy relationship with the research and practice of mindfulness we need to acknowledge the fact that it works with the full spectrum of human experiences and we can invite it to the full spectrum. [00:10:50.08] DAVID: So, what's interesting -- you made me think about this was you want to marry psychology and spirituality together. And what I'm noticing is psychology is dealing with the mind -- the actual like apparatus and then spirituality is dealing with the heart and the soul. So, you have this like metaphysical thing that you can't necessarily touch. You know and so it's like you want to marry these two together -- that's what I'm hearing is you want to bring the metaphysical meets the mind and the teachings just come together. And not it being a remedy but almost it being a daily practice, so you have consistent remedies all the time. Remedies for happiness. Remedies to be in happiness all the time. [00:11:29.19] ITAI IVTZAN: Very true. Yeah absolutely. That's a beautiful way to put it. And then you know I think about it as bringing earth and sky together. We want to touch both and be connected to be part of both. [00:11:40.09] DAVID: I do a Chinese martial arts and they talk about Heaven, Earth and person and heaven and earth hang out in your dantain -- is where you -- like your breath -- your chia is stored and so it's like how you're bringing those two elements together to like be the person in the middle. Experiencing it. So, to transition into our topic. What did you want to talk about today -- I know you had like a nice little intro to that? [00:12:02.04] ITAI IVTZAN: Well I just felt that for me one of the most interesting topics because I -- in addition or holding hands with mindfulness I'm also a positive psychologist. [00:12:12.00] DAVID: A positive psychology? [00:12:13.17] ITAI IVTZAN: A positive psychologist. That's how it's gotta be referred to. And you know we research all those areas that are usually neglected in psychology. Usually psychology is all about -- similar to what I kind of said earlier -- usually psychology is all about what is wrong with us and how can we fix it, which is important to know. But, almost no one's asking what is right with us and how can we have more of that? So, you know it's just interesting to notice for example that passion wasn't researched at all in psychology up to the point of positive psychology came about. [00:12:48.02] DAVID: That's interesting. It's like that's not broken so we're not going to fix it. [00:12:50.07] ITAI IVTZAN: Exactly. It's like -- and if you think about it -- at least for me passion is one of the most beautiful and important characteristics -- isn't it. So, I think we really need to know more about when are we passionate? What's the impact of being passionate, right. How does it transform your life, right? up until that point positive psychology came about in 1998 the only research around passion we had was a relationship with romantic relationships. So, sex and such. That's when passion was researched. But all this beautiful piece around do I feel passion love? How does it impact me? What choices do I make to feel more passion -- just an example, right? So, there are so many similar areas uh courage for example. So many beautiful things we need to know more about that we study within positive psychology. So, a piece I thought you and I could discuss today is meaning in life. Ooh. [00:13:45.03] DAVID: That's a big one. So where do you think meaning -- the meaning of life comes from or the unique meaning of life because everyone's meanings obviously got to be different. But where does meaning come from? Where do you think it stems from? Do you think it comes from like your heart, your mind, your soul -- from external things coming at you? [00:14:05.14] ITAI IVTZAN: Yeah. [00:14:06.22] DAVID: Or all of the above? [00:14:07.08] ITAI IVTZAN: Yeah that's a great question. So, I'd like to start by differentiating the meaning of life and one's personal meaning in life. So, what we're going to talk about today is not the meaning of life. I don't know what's the meaning of life, right. I know maybe someone -- maybe someone has asked and if they do please call me. I don't yet. This -- just give me 525 years and it's done. But, I like us to talk about personal meaning. So, when we transform the question from an objective open one about kind of the entire humanity into one that is personal. That's what we're going to talk about. Like what is my personal meaning in life? That's what we discuss. And you ask about where it comes from. And there are so many approaches here. And for me all of them are valid. Each of us -- you know we have our intuitive relationship with where meaning comes from. So, we can talk about meaning on a psychological level. Right this is more of the kind of personally constructed meaning. And so, this is kind of -- I look back at my life and I look back at the building blocks and I look back at what brought me here and I construct something that feels meaningful to me. And that also gives me purpose. And this is -- this is interesting to differentiate that meaning is the theoretical concept we have while purpose is the way we apply it. So, purpose is the way we give life to our meaning [00:15:32.11] DAVID: Yeah so purpose is like the external solution to meaning. So, meaning is the inspirational piece -- the internal digest of something. [00:15:40.16] ITAI IVTZAN: And then yeah as you said you talk about external -- I would say this is when yeah when that internal realization is meeting reality -- how do I manifest it, right? So that psychological meaning is something I construct and then there's another very interesting invitation into meaning for me which is the question around spiritual meaning. Like -- and again there's so many approaches here. I mean one approach that I personally really empathize with is the question of the soul. And again, this is very personal because for some people reincarnation is something they feel very comfortable with and they do believe that you know this is not their first visit upon earth and being alive and others feel that's not relevant for them. Both options are great but if you do feel that your soul is something that is moving through a journey and that the current life is just one amongst a number of different lives than spiritual meaning for me is about why has my soul chosen to come here at this particular life with these particular individuals I'm surrounded by with this particular body. With those gifts and challenges that I experience, right. And then there is this deeply embedded meaning spiritual meaning -- I think about it like an undercurrent river that is constantly flowing just under our lives. And if we are sensitive enough to the flow of that water we get a lot of meaningful insights to do with what is the right choice for me. If I'm in a relationship with that river then when people offer me options or when I get a job proposal or when this potential for a relationship here I tap into the water of that river and then I know deep within me not on a cognitive rational level but on a deeper level of knowledge -- I know whether this is right because it corresponds or not with my personal meaning. [00:17:41.08] DAVID: Awesome. Very cool. So, we're onto the meaning of life and how do you think someone finds the meaning of life -- because it's so uniquely oriented to different people. But is there like sort of techniques or anything in the transpersonal world that helps discover the underwater aquifers that exist in our lives or that energy. Because sometimes there's feelings of not being able to tap into the intuition or into the flow of life and / or maybe you can tap into it, but you just don't know how to represent it into the world. You don't know how to manifest it as we're saying. So, is there any sort of techniques to develop it and or manifest it in people's lives? [00:18:26.22] ITAI IVTZAN: Well I'll start with -- I'll start with an image. I sometimes see people and I work with a lot of groups and clients and I see sometimes people who it's as if they walk into a dark room. It's completely dark and they're given a bow and arrows and they are being told somewhere in this room there is a target and it's the center of that target. Good luck with that, right. And it's completely dark. So, they start shooting arrows right in hope that one of those arrows would hit the center of that target. And quite naturally you know almost all of those arrows would -- would have nothing. And they would feel very frustrated. And I feel this is a nice analogy to the way a lot of people approach the whole question of meaning. Right, they hope that by coincidence -- by jumping into different options -- one of them miraculously you will be kind of, yes that's right for me! OK. Now, instead of shooting those arrows -- what I feel the healthy approach would be is to drop the boat for a minute and search around the room for the light switch, right. We turn off the light -- [00:19:46.19] DAVID: Wait a minute. [00:19:47.08] ITAI IVTZAN: Yeah, just a second. I need to see -- I need to see, right. Not just on a visual level but on a much deeper -- I need to see in order to make choices. Yeah, right. Most of us throughout life make choices in the dark. Deep within ignorance -- not ignorance of knowledge but ignorance of ourselves. So, turning on the light would mean -- and here we go back to your question -- means self-investigation / self-knowledge. Right? So, there is no way for us to come in touch with our personal meaning and leave our personal meaning if we don't know ourselves. In a way it takes me back to the way we started the conversation -- we started with the relationship between psychology and spirituality. I always think about them as -- as holding hands because spirituality is usually thought -- I mean are so many definitions to it -- so many ways to approach and think about it and all of them are legitimate but the way it's usually referred to in the literature and in the practice as well is something around self-transcendence, right? So, spirituality is that invitation to move beyond the personal self. Psychology, on the other hand is almost the opposite. It's the invitation to move into that personal self to get to know better. You know the -- the cognitive processing of that personal self -- the ego components, the bits and pieces that makes me Itai. Like a mosaic and the different stones come together and then I ask, you know, in my work what I ask is how can we transcend that which we don't know? Right, how can we transcend that which we don't know? And that's why psychology and spirituality are almost needed for each other, right, through my psychological journey. I get to know myself. So that I could let go of myself within my spiritual journey. [00:21:45.10] DAVID: Yeah, there is a component of self-investigation in both of these things and while you're marrying them you're just marrying the fact that you are willing to self-investigate the whole time. And also, what I realized about meaning and journeys and self-exploration is that sometimes you'll explore something that necessarily isn't your highest purpose or goal or direction you ultimately think you need to go into. But, then after the fact you realize that was a good direction to go in because it informs the ultimate meaning of where you want to go. So, sometimes you do need to try some things out that aren't necessarily like, oh this isn't my meaning, but this does feel good and I am going to follow it. I'm going to follow my passion. So, sometimes it is okay to investigate in certain areas that you may not assume they are the meaning or the purpose, but they do inform the purpose. [00:22:38.19] ITAI IVTZAN: Yeah. And yet what we need to remember is that there are different routes to that investigation. So, for many of us those kind of branching out and exploring -- it's done out of fear. It's done out of confusion. Right, it's done out of disconnection, disengagement with ourselves that will probably lead us into an exploration that wouldn't be very relevant to the authentic path we are here for. Compared with an experience where I am rooted within myself and in a way, IÕm answering your former question about like how do we actually do that? When I am rooted within myself -- then I don't even think about it as I have to follow my ultimate path. I just think about it as I recognize that each and every moment what is carrying the deepest invitation to whatever is meaningful to me. I know how to make those choices, right? I can see them. I can feel them. I can smell them. I can taste them. They are kind of bubbling within me and then I can move ahead with those choices. So, on a very practical level what it means is we need to come in touch with ourselves. We need to spend time meditating. We need to spend time in therapy. We need to spend time dancing -- reconnecting with our bodies. We need to spend time reading things that blow our minds on very literal like it would allow my mind to open up. So, the list is endless. Right? Anything you feel that would take you beyond the boundary of what you define as yourself is the right path towards deepening your relationship with meaning. [00:24:24.16] DAVID: Yeah oh my gosh. Yeah. Finding the path and they're all unique -- everyone's going to have a different path, but some may collide together. I think of it like when people collide together as friendship, lovers, relationships, family members I think of it like a celestial orbit, you know, and sometimes you have friends and family that just kind of jettisoned out of your orbit. Sometimes you have friends that are just so -- just circling you really outside but they're like in your gravitational pull and then they're just there long term. So, I love -- I love this idea of like discovering the journey and then seeing what works for you. [00:24:57.02] ITAI IVTZAN: And by the way -- just an important piece here that this is why the practice of mindfulness is so meaningful here. Because through the practice of mindfulness you are constantly aware of that movement you were talking about -- things coming in, things leaving. And then instead of being attached to certain things and expecting them to be in a certain way and therefore not allowing that flow to happen. You let it happen because you can feel that this is right. It might be painful, right, just to clarify. We're not talking about I always feel good. We're just talking about this is right. [00:25:33.16] DAVID: Yeah. I've realized sometimes when you're dealing with painful situations that you have to let go of, but you know they're the best decision -- it's an investment. It's an investment for the long term -- it's an investment to your soul -- itÕs an investment to if you're dealing with other people -- it's an investment to the other person as well. Because sometimes it's hard but it's a lot harder to be untruthful to yourself and to others. So, what are we investing is how I like to look at it. How do we sustain, replenish, nurture our investigation, our meaning because I've noticed when I was young 20s I was so energetic about so many things and I just like did it so hard and near? I noticed that energy went away. It wasn't there anymore. And now, I'm rediscovering it but I'm cur -- I actually thought it was going to be there forever. I was like oh my gosh I tapped into something. Here it is forever. And it wanes. It oscillates within our lives. How can we sustain it and or recognize when it's here and not here? [00:26:37.14] ITAI IVTZAN: Yeah, I would say instead of thinking about it as here or not here -- I would say recognize how its shape shifting throughout life. Like we sometimes think about meaning as a rock. I found the rock. I put it here and it will sit here till the end of time. Right? And then a lot of clients I work with -- our clients who found that piece, right? And then a year, five years, 20, 40 years later the rock has crumbled. It is now dust and they sit there shocked by the fact that oh my god wait a second -- nothing's here. And it used to be so full. So, how do we work with that, right? And again, I go back to the same point we've made earlier about self-awareness and connection with the self because you see life is constant movement. We are constant movement. Life is change -- we are changed. Meaning is constant movement and constant change. As long as I'm in a relationship with myself -- as long as I'm connected with that -- then that flow doesn't throw me out of balance. It doesn't disturb me because I can see as it happens. It's not a kind of I look back -- where did it come from like is it something in me? Midlife crisis is the classic example, right? Why -- why do a lot of people go through a mid-life crisis because they started with something and then a lot of things have changed, and they weren't connected to the transformation as it took place and it created a gap between what they carry inside and how their life actually look like. And that gap is so frustrating and so confusing that we go through mid-life crisis you know when we buy a car and a new house to make it a little bit better. If instead I am fully aware of myself throughout my 20s, 30s, 40s I will not experience a mid-life crisis because there is no gap. I'm there present with the process of change. [00:28:44.08] DAVID: Yeah. Wow I think that's a really insightful thing to think about is the fact that everything is shifting -- the rock that we found when we're young 20s or teenagers or whatever the meaningful rock -- it's not going to be the same rock that we find when we're midlife or the same rock when we're later in our life. There's a lot of rocks out there. [00:29:03.20] ITAI IVTZAN: There are a lot of rocks out there and can we love all our rocks equally? Can we embrace all our rocks equally even when some -- some of them land on our feet and break our toes, right? How -- how -- what kind of relationship do we have with those rocks? This is huge! [00:29:21.08] DAVID: Yeah and -- and also the relationship will also shift as well. So, we're going to be having many rocks and the thing is you need to find those little nectar of rocks to go to the next one. And so, they all inform each other and that's why the shifting -- but realizing the shift is real. Yeah, I love that. [00:29:37.18] ITAI IVTZAN: Yeah, you talked about kind of the sustaining rocks that maybe I'll just briefly offer an overview of the way I think about meaning. Meaning is working on three levels. Path meaning present -- meaning in future meaning. Path meaning refers to my life story. So, the building blocks -- the rocks that I jump through from rock to rock and then created this thing that I call my life. It's the narrative of my own life right. That's something we usually meet in therapy right. I would go into therapy and I would commit -- a lot of those pieces to do with my meaning in the past are hidden blocked because the stuff surrounding them, right. And we need to unpack them so that the narrative is as rich and as accepting as possible because a lot of those pieces are at the moment in the shadow of my psyche. I want to bring them into the light. So that's my past oriented meaning and it has a lot of impact on the way I think about my own meaning and why am I here in life and so on and so forth. Present oriented meaning is the skill of going through everyday life activities and moments and experiences and seeing the beauty in each and every one of them. Right? And I know it's really difficult. It's very difficult when we go when we rush through life -- it's very difficult to see the sacred and the mundane but present oriented meaning is inviting us to do that. So, you know for example I would work with groups and I would ask you know we would go outside and we do some beautiful walking meditation in nature and then I would ask them to take out -- if you have cameras or even with a mobile phone and ask them to spend 10 minutes walking around and being very present taking a picture. And we come back to the room and we share what is the meaning of the picture for each person and the stories are so powerful and so beautiful with the most simple and mundane -- you know they took a picture of a leaf or they took a picture of a bird flying or whatever and it's so powerful. So that's -- right -- and that's present oriented meaning and the future oriented meaning is that piece around purpose we talked about, so I look -- I have this life narrative to do with my past. I have this deep connection with the present and my meaning in the present. And then what kind of a future oriented meaning do I create here. Right? And here I'd like to say something really important around goals. Because (sighs) usually -- we create goals in an attached manner. So, I have a goal and then I'm invested in that goal. And then my psyche is invested in that goal. And then if it happens that's wonderful but if it doesn't happen then something inside of me is crashing down because I am attached to it. And if it's falling I'm falling, right. Can we create the kind of future oriented meaning that incorporates those goals because goals are beautiful? I love looking into my future and have dreams and a vision. Right? But, I'm not attached to it at all. That is the difficult piece. [00:32:41.16] DAVID: Having goals but understanding that attachment doesn't need to be with the goal. Beyond understanding -- experiencing that I am not holding on to that goal, right. It's a goal and it's floating there, and, in a way, it goes back to what you said earlier about the fact that we might have an idea of what is the meaning and where are we heading. And then something would happen, and its shape shifted, and something completely transformed. Right? Do I have the capacity to say yes at that moment of invitation? [00:33:14.18] DAVID: Yeah. Are you invested in a goal that you thought you were attached to? You know, so your attachments get questioned and then you have a decision making process to go through and you actually realize what is meaningful to you. You get to redefine what is your meaning all of a sudden. [00:33:33.09] ITAI IVTZAN: Absolutely. That's in many ways a lot of our challenges in life are about that, right? Through our choices. Through that kind of meaning you talked about -- I shape myself. [00:33:46.08] DAVID: Yes. Awesome. Thank you so much for sharing all this. So, we have a couple of minutes left. You know, I got to do the Naropa question and just ask -- what is it like teaching at Naropa in a contemplative model. You came here from England? [00:33:58.10] ITAI IVTZAN: University's London in London. Yes. [00:34:00.13] DAVID: OK so you came here and now you're in Boulder Colorado. [00:34:04.07] ITAI IVTZAN: Yeah. [00:34:04.07] DAVID: In the United States. What is it like working with the students? Being in the grad program and -- and kind of teaching this contemplative model. Teaching in the transpersonal, mindfulness based counseling? [00:34:13.09] DAVID: I've been teaching spirituality for many, many years and yet very frequently I used to teach it from the back door. It's like I would integrate it into classes and into sessions. But it wasn't full on. It wasn't their sense of point -- it wasn't at the forefront of the teaching process because a lot of organizations and a lot of institutions especially the academia are not comfortable with spirituality. They're not comfortable with transpersonal either, right. So, if you ask me to share in a single word how do I feel coming into Naropa? I would -- I would use the word liberated. [00:34:52.03] DAVID: Hey! [00:34:52.11] ITAI IVTZAN: Yeah. So just the freedom to talk about anything and everything within the psycho spiritual journey. And feel that the students are not just okay with it or accepting it. They are celebrating it. That's for me a huge gift. [00:35:11.06] DAVID: I was going to say the fact that you're feeling liberated -- how does that affect the quality of your teaching and also the experience of the students? Because obviously you're going to be like a little -- your heart's going to be shining a bit more. You ain't going to be doing this backdoor teachings per se. The door is going to be open -- the window is going to be open and so are the minds and the hearts. [00:35:31.07] ITAI IVTZAN: It creates this incredible gestalt relationship where I flourish, and the students flourish, and we grow together, and we enjoy this together and it's just a beautiful experience. [00:35:42.00] DAVID: And I was going to say like you're probably learning too in this whole process? [00:35:43.14] ITAI IVTZAN: Of course. Of course. I don't know a single human being who's not learning at any point in time -- what I'm trying to say is that we usually think about if you're either a professor or a CEO or whatever -- wherever you are in this experience of life -- we all came here to learn, period. All human beings came here to learn, right. We grow in different ways and that learning experience could be done through teaching it -- could be done through our relationship with teaching. There are so many questions I still ask myself. After more than 20 years of teaching -- like how do I approach this? What's the right -- how do I most authentically bring myself to the teaching experience? That's why I love teaching so much because I get to meet myself. [00:36:30.11] DAVID: Yeah. Interesting. I'm noticing through my podcast journey of speaking with a bunch of faculty members here at Naropa -- the fact that everyone says the same thing -- that they're learning just as much as the students are learning so it has this sort of synergy of like a charged classroom where it's just very free flowing and the information just comes out. And, I just love hearing that story of everyone just like in a room just learning together. [00:36:57.20] ITAI IVTZAN: Yes. [00:36:58.17] DAVID: And this is the educational journey. Wow, I love your energy. I love your stories. I love your knowledge. I love the information that you have. The idea of mixing the psychology and the spiritual together and just marry together. You're just so passionate and so loving of this topic. It was just such an honor to speak with you today. So, thank you so much. [00:37:21.01] ITAI IVTZAN: Thank you, David. It was really, really great being here. [00:37:23.21] DAVID: So that was Itai Ivtzan on the podcast. I'd really like to thank him again. He's an associate professor teaching in the mindfulness based transpersonal counseling program. So, thanks again. That was a high five. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]