Joey Marti Contemplative Psychology [MUSIC] Hello. And welcome to Mindful U at Naropa. A podcast presented by Naropa University in Boulder, Colorado. I'm your host, David Devine. And itÕs a pleasure to welcome you. Joining the best of Eastern and Western educational traditions - Naropa is the birth place of the modern mindfulness movement. [MUSIC] [00:00:43.18] DAVID: Hello, and welcome to Mindful U. Today we have a very special guest. We have a grad student - his name is Joey Marti. He is a graduate of the contemplative psych program. And I'd like to welcome him to the podcast today. [00:00:57.13] JOEY: Hey David. Thanks for having me. [00:00:59.21] DAVID: Yeah, no problem. So, itÕs really exciting today because you are a Naropa graduate and you are the first and normally what I do is interview teachers so itÕs really interesting to have the approach of the student experience. So, would you like to - kind of like talk about your experience or how was the program. What you did at Naropa? [00:01:20.06] JOEY: Yes, so I actually kind of learned the TiPi process we're going to talk about soon. Uh I learned that before I came to Naropa. Uh so it was something that definitely colored my vision as being there which was actually really beautiful because I was able to see what I was being taught at Naropa through the contemplative lens as well as Buddhist psychology uh and my concentrations were in sematic psychology and health and healing. So, having this practice before I came there was super beneficial to get me through the stresses of school - most importantly as well being able to help others get through the stresses of school. Seeing how what they were already teaching there - a lot of it tied into what I learned through this TiPi process. So, it really built a lot for me. It gave me a lot more language to what I had experienced when using this TiPi technique. [00:02:08.07] DAVID: Awesome. And just - just for the listeners can you explain what TiPi is because you're using the letters TiPi. I don't think everyone knows what that is. So, can you just kind of break that down and let us know what it is and then we can go deep into what that is. [00:02:21.00] JOEY: Uh yes, so TiPi is TiPi. ItÕs actually a French technique. So, the acronyms don't really work out completely. Uh itÕs something around the technique for the sensory identification of unconscious fears is kind of what it breaks down and uh in English terminology. The original founder Luc Nicon he was the one that created the technique itself and kind of the one cool things that I found interesting is he doesn't really consider it something that he found and created himself but it was more of the work of many that kind of been able to detect the ability to be able to find fears within ourselves and the natural ability of the body to be able to process that. So, he's kind of taken the work of many and the research that he's done and found a very precise way to be able to access that body knowledge. Uh and the way I kind of liken it and have learned from uh the instructor that taught me, Cedric Bertelli, he kind of - likens it to the way that the body can heal from an injury. So, your skin is able to automatically be able to heal itself when its cut, when its scraped, when its burned. ItÕs a natural process that the biology knows how to do. And what he is saying as well and the way that I understand it - the way I work with clients - is we can do the same thing emotionally. Uh - and actually we do it all the time without really realizing it. Uh the really points is to where we notice itÕs not working correctly is most especially phobias uh a lot of people may not know how that really ties into their experience, but they know that they have a phobia and they might move their uh life around in specific ways to stay away from those situations. General fears as well as you know any type of emotional disturbance really - it can be used on. So, the point where I help clients to discover those pieces is usually when they come to me as they have something that is actually really bothering themselves in their life. And then when that happens they notice that that's something that is affecting them and so you'd be able to have a specific situation where you can use this technique on. [00:04:26.20] DAVID: Yeah, so this is a very psyche practice - emotional practice. ItÕs not - there is nothing really physical about it, but you do dive into the physicality of it - am I hearing that right? [00:04:37.05] JOEY: Yeah, so itÕs an interesting balance between - itÕs kind of a top down approach I guess in the psychology realm. Where you would use the mind to be able to access this emotional disturbance that's occurring and then once that happens that basically triggers the body into that sematic response and then from there on the rest of - the majority of the technique really works with the body itself. And so, what I've kind of found is that through a lot of psychology work with like Stephen Porges as well as Peter Levine - uh a lot of Peter Levine's work works with the sematic side. And at the same time, kind of a disclaimer within this - I am not saying that there are not beneficial techniques out there. There is a lot of really great stuff - however what I've seen with TiPi is it can be a lot more simple. A lot more effective and a lot quicker than most techniques out there that I've tried. And so, within that Peter Levine's work is kind of very similar to that where it uses the sematic ability of the body to know what's happening. And then you follow the evolution of the sensations instead of conceptually trying to understand what happens and that's what a lot of talk therapy does. And I think sometimes it can retrigger people. It can also make the process a lot longer. Where with this technique I have found that its basically that balance between enabling somebody in their process or empowering them in the ability to take care of their own emotions. [00:06:01.03] DAVID: Yeah, it seems like one of those processes where itÕs a technique in which you learn and then from there you could apply it if something is triggering you. You know you don't have to run to your psychologist and hey I have something now - itÕs a technique that you are given to use at any trauma triggering moment. [00:06:20.07] JOEY: Completely. And I guess I can kind of segue way us into the different ways that TiPi can be used uh so there is kind of two pathways in a way. Uh one is going to be a TiPi itself where you basically the client has had this emotional disturbance of some sort. I kind of help them to find the precise moment we need for the technique uh and then that goes into a session and so itÕs basically something that has happened in the past for the client. Within the last month to two preferably. We bring that to a session and then that's what they work on. And then the other avenue is self TiPi. And self TiPi uh there is kind of two portions of it. One of them is very similar to the first TiPi that I mentioned where the client has this previous moment of experience that happened, and they use that in a session. However, I am teaching them how to use it on themselves autonomously. And that's what I love about this is because it becomes autonomous process where they no longer are married to the person that is teaching them. They are able to use it on themselves. And then the second portion of self TiPi which is most beneficial for me is present moment TiPi. So as something occurs in your life - at any present moment you notice you are triggered - that's when you can use the technique and actually be able to resolve it in the moment. And if for some reason you aren't able to for some reason - uh then you can basically use that again for self TiPi at home by yourself autonomously and resolve that same thing that might have disturbed you earlier on. [00:07:49.21] DAVID: The tools to do it yourself. I really like that. That seems extremely useful especially nowadays. [00:07:56.03] JOEY: Yes, completely. [00:07:56.23] DAVID: Awesome. So, can we dive into what TiPi is? How the process goes maybe like a trial session uh experiences you had with clients? [00:08:06.12] JOEY: Yeah. [00:08:07.00] DAVID: You know something like that. Let's like explain TiPi a little bit - unpack it, I guess. [00:08:10.16] JOEY: Yeah. All right and so if you want something to be able to use for yourself in the moment when you feel a trigger this is the kind of one, two, three, four of information uh to be able to use the present moment TiPi technique on yourself in the moment when you notice that you're triggered. Uh so obviously the first thing is to notice that you're triggered uh the next thing is you want to be in a safe space so driving don't do this. So, number one, the most important thing is going to be close your eyes. So, you notice that you're triggered. Close your eyes. Number two, is going to be feel the sensations in your body. And number three, tell yourself allow these sensations to evolve. And then you sit in that for two minutes or less. So, you want to keep your eyes until you feel a sense of relaxation or calm. Uh and then once you feel that you can go and open your eyes and then the technique has basically been completed. [00:09:14.23] DAVID: Awesome. Thank you for sharing that. [00:09:17.15] JOEY: One of the difficult things about TiPi itself is itÕs a little bit difficult to - itÕs kind of more an experience thing that you have to have. And then when it comes to ways in which I've been able to help clients - in different situations. There has been one client that I helped out that had a phobia of airplanes. I don't know if she would consider it a phobia specifically - that's just one way to label it I guess. Either way she had a huge emotional hurricane within her when it came to being on an airplane. And she actually lived out of the country. She was here visiting the US for a while and it was difficult to go see her family because she literally had to drug herself up with pharmaceuticals in order to get herself to a plane and be ok to be on the plane whether it was you know alcohol or pharmaceuticals - either way. And so, after a session we were able to resolve that to where she was actually able to go on an airplane again. An interesting thing is that when we actually did a session it wasn't her going onto the airplane. It was actually her taking a friend to the airport. So even just going to the airport to take a friend she knew she wasn't going to fly - it still triggered her. Uh and so being able to use that - she was able to resolve the entire string of events that were leading her body into this emotional disturbance through one session that was you know 60 minutes or less. That can happen within 60 minutes or less. Uh as well as present moment TiPi - pretty much any emotional disturbance can be resolved through this technique and within two seconds to two and a half minutes if itÕs done properly. And so that's kind of what the discovery process of doing a session with somebody is kind of finding where the things aren't working along the process and then kind of adjusting those which is why we will do like a 60 minute session, but it can be done in 2 second and 2 1/2 minutes if itÕs actually gone through all the way - quickly. [00:11:06.11] DAVID: Wow, ok so yeah it seems like when you master or are used to the process it could be a quick process. It doesn't have to be this long drawn out scenario - you know. [00:11:16.11] JOEY: Yeah, completely. And a lot of times what I am doing with someone in a session is going to be more of unraveling social constructions about how we're supposed to regulate ourselves emotionally. So, a lot of that is actually just finding the ability and kind of guiding someone to diving into the sematic sensations of the body that are being brought up when uh this person is bringing back this emotional memory of this disturbance. So, itÕs really a sematic approach and the way I kind of liken it is that the body itself - the original language that we had before we became highly smart humans with very big brains and all these other processes that made us more able to do more things - the original language of the body was sensation. And so, what we're doing here is we're talking to those parts of the brain that we're first developed. A lot of this goes in the polyvagal theory uh that he saw that different parts of the brain we're developed at different times of evolution and some of those earlier parts which I guess we would call the reptilian brain - that part actually speaks via sensations. Those are the parts that can be caught up sometimes especially when we're social constructed to do - you know specific breathing process when we don't feel well. Or so forth - there is a lot of different ways in which that can change. [00:12:35.19] DAVID: And just real quick, when you say sematic what does that actually mean? [00:12:39.09] JOEY: That's a good question. So -- what I - I guess through the lens of TiPi in a way there is kind of two avenues. We've got the emotional avenue which a lot of times nobody can label anxiety, anger, frustration, love - those can be the emotional route. But really what that means is itÕs kind of a conglomeration of sensation. Uh so we have these feelings. These body sensations that happen within our body and itÕs you know all these different places, all these different things that happen and then we label it as such anxiety, anger, love and so that's one avenue. With TiPi we're going straight to body sensations which for me the sematic side. Uh the soma is the body. So, itÕs really about the body process and physical sensations are tied to many different things which we're not always taught the language for that. So, it can be temperature, pressure, movement, uh those are kind of locations. So, we find locations of where it happened in the body and what that feels like. And that's really the sematic piece because the body has a memory of the sensory imprints that occur when we have these disturbances but they're very different than this cognition approach to understanding what they mean and why they are there. [00:13:55.23] DAVID: Yeah. I just randomly thought of this question. So, when it comes to somatic feelings of trauma or anything that is triggering someone - have you noticed that certain traumas actually trigger the same part of the body in everybody? Or is everyone different and there is different triggering points within the sematic body? Have you noticed any similarities or is it always different? [00:14:19.11] JOEY: There is definitely similarities in like constriction. It may be in different places of the body, but itÕs pretty off the board different for everybody. And that's where it becomes this kind of non-labeled idea as to like what it is - and why itÕs there. And that's kind of interesting for the people is to like just be with what it is. And that's what I love about it and how I learned so much from Naropa because a lot of the techniques that are taught there for contemplative practices is being with what is happening in your present moment. Uh and not judging it or labeling it. And that is kind of the same thing with what TiPi does is accept more on the sematic side of actual physical sensations that it doesn't actually have to be - there is no conception to why itÕs there. ItÕs more of - seeing what's there, allowing it to process as it needs to and letting it change as it needs to. [00:15:11.21] DAVID: Wonderful. So, I'd love to like dive into a mini session or some sort of trial so the listeners can kind of hear what analysis of TiPi would be like. Maybe not like give me session, but you can just explain how a session would flow. [00:15:29.11] JOEY: Yeah definitely. Uh so -- I guess when nuance to that ahead of time is - one thing that is really great that I love about TiPi is especially for traumatic events. We can say PTSD or any type of actual like really huge trauma is that within the TiPi process you don't actually go into the original situation that caused that traumatic event. And uh I think going into that can actually re-traumatize somebody. So, really what itÕs about is what is happening currently in your life that is a repercussion of that original trauma and that's what would be brought to a session. Uh so really the - the piece about that that I usually tell the clients before we actually start a session is uh you need to be able to look at that repercussion. So, itÕs the original trauma or not just something that you are noticing that you are wanting to work with - it keeps coming up in your life. You want to be able to find that precise moment as to when that emotional disturbance occurred. And so, one way to kind of see it is that itÕs going to be almost like a movie. There is the entire movie. There is the scene within that and then there is actual frames itself and you're wanting to notice when you actually become triggered. Uh and then we take that little snippet of a memory and then that was actually brought into a session. And then so with the session itself it can be done on the phone - that's actually the most effective. Can do it in person as well and then the Skype is a possibility as well. Uh I've noticed on the phone session is actually the most effective because the person can be in the - the comfort of their own home. You know a space that is safe, that is quiet and then just having a headset on the phone and then we can talk over the phone about it. Uh itÕs not as easy - I mean honestly the most quickest we can get through it - I have noticed is with people that know the least about TiPi uh because the more we talk about it - the more conceptual ideas they have in their brain as to what itÕs going to be like and what itÕs supposed to be like are we doing it right? Uh - and so that's what makes it actually very difficult to talk about it is that itÕs going to be something that you're not as used to doing, however, that is actually what makes it more effective is because you come into it knowing that the body is going to do its thing and then we just kind of talk to that process about how to talk to your body in a way to be more open to what it has to give you I guess. [00:17:50.11] DAVID: Yeah, so my understanding of what you're saying is when you're talking about the trigger point - you dive into - what the body is feeling and not what happened in the memory so much is that correct? [00:18:05.00] JOEY: Correct. [00:18:06.00] DAVID: Ok, so how does feeling in the body - how does that kind of heal the moment that you previously had that had that trigger in it? What is it with the body - like why is the TiPi useful to dive into when it comes to the memory moments? [00:18:23.08] JOEY: Right, so I think initially psychology kind of thought that a lot of traumatic experiences were stuck in the brain itself and a lot of more research is coming out about sensory memory and that the actual cells themselves have a memory in a way as to physical sensation. I can't say completely - I don't know everything about it, but what I have noticed is that there is basically an imprint that occurs in the body when the trauma is brought back up again or this uh emotional disturbance is brought back up again. And that there is a very specific way that the body responds and so as psychology knows a lot is that the body does not really actually know the difference between a lived experience that is presently happening. Something that is on the television or even a dream itself - that the body still responds to that stimulus that you are having in your mind as an experience - a conscious experience. It can't really delineate either way itÕs going to respond to it. And so, the TiPi technique we're using that ability to our advantage. The way that I have been seeing it more recently is because my original process of starting school was automotive technology uh so I kind of see through that lens as well. I was going to be a mechanic at one point and what I feel that TiPi is basically an owner's manual to the body itself. I think we come here and we're not given an owner's manual, so we have all of these sensations that occur. We don't know what they mean and how to use them and I think that's why - uh health is going the way that it is. I want to be a doctor in the end goal of all of this and I see there is a huge void between psychology and medicine and mental health and wellness. For me, this is an instruction manual to be able to find the precise way that I can regulate myself emotionally so that I am able to actually look at the places in which I am stuck. So, inhibition is one of these. Just to give the listeners an idea as to how it worked for me - so I had learned this technique. I thought it was really cool because I was kind grabbing a lot of information. I didn't really think I had anything to work on for myself. I was using it with other people. Finding some really cool triggers that I had no idea - friends that had uh they were able to resolve those - like fear of bridges, fear of water, uh something I never knew this person had and all of the sudden exploded and then we're able to do something on it. So, I was using it on other people and then for myself I actually - Naropa had a Naropa healer's day and so they we're offering massage, whatever students at Naropa had that they wanted to offer to kind of get their services out there. Uh I had massage in my background but other people were doing it and I was like oh I've got this thing called TiPi. Maybe I will do it on that. And so, as I was preparing for this - uh it was actually the day of - to go basically speak about this for whoever showed up - I realized I was getting very, very nervous uh -- [00:21:19.01] DAVID: Tends to happen. [00:21:19.08] JOEY: Yeah. I guess - we could label it as anxiety. Like I had this anxiety attack - uh and so usually we know when you do something you get anxious. You might have to go to the restroom, so I went to the bathroom and then when I was kind of sitting there I was finished and then I was like wait a minute like I am so anxious right now. I can actually use TiPi right now. And it just hit me that I could use what I was about to speak about. Uh and I literally closed my eyes. Felt the sensations that were occurring. Told myself allow these sensations to evolve you know I kind of felt things happen in my body sematically. And within you know less than a minute - everything was calm. And then I took that, and I was able to speak about it and little did I know - I was already working with social anxiety. Didn't realize it. I mean I kind of knew, but didn't know. And as well as public speaking was something that I didn't want to do, but I did it because I was in school and I had to do it. Ever since that moment of resolving that - I guess you could call anxiety in that moment of being an expert and having to teach TiPi to people that know anything about it. Uh me resolving that one thing allowed me to be able to be empowered in every moment since then to be able to be in roles that I never would. I was a student group leader for Sacred Sex Salon at Naropa for three years. That was a role that I never would have done. Being open to uh - things in front of class. Things that I wouldn't do. Being on this talk right now is something I would never see myself doing because I was so hindered by what I felt in the moment when being on the spot and having to be somewhere. [00:22:54.12] DAVID: Yeah, and itÕs interesting too because there is this feeling of you didn't master those feelings. Those feelings still come up but what you are able to do is authentically feel that and know itÕs going to pass. ItÕs kind of like a way of passing through the ocean. Its - once it hits the boat itÕs going to keep going. ItÕs going to keep going on its path whatever direction it is. And it seems as though when we get out of the way - and we don't tense our body up we can just feel what we are feeling, and we can be ok with that. And that's what TiPi is sounding like to me. Like and owner's manual to channel intense emotions or triggers. [00:23:31.19] JOEY: Completely. Well said. And that's what it was for me and I think that is what the confusion sometimes can be is like well I am human I want to have these emotions uh which is true and at the same if itÕs something that's feel like its stuck - or it keeps recurring in a way where its throwing you off the horse - it might be something to look at. And for me that's what it was is once I processed it - itÕs not that I no longer feel. ItÕs now that I won't label it as anxiety and itÕs something that actually feels enlivening for me. So, for me now itÕs something that I am enlivened by. ItÕs still might make me shake a little bit, but itÕs something that doesn't throw me off the horse any longer. Because when that wave hits the boat, now I know that I can move with it and instead of it being tight with it and then being thrown off the boat. [00:24:18.06] DAVID: Yeah, you got your emotional sea legs now. [00:24:20.11] JOEY: Exactly. [00:24:21.15] DAVID: You're like I guess we're just shaking. Let's just -- [00:24:24.03] JOEY: Let's just shake with it - you just got to flow with it. [00:24:26.08] DAVID: Yeah, doesn't seem like we are taught to fully feel what is happening. Society tends to - conditions us in a way that that we're not authentically feeling something. We're like oh get that out of here. I don't like that feeling. Oh, I am going to try and feel this and all of the sudden my shoulders are tight. Like what's going on or I am feeling like a tingling sensation in my legs - you know and then you get to tap into that and allow it to channel. [00:24:54.18] JOEY: Yeah completely. And that's - itÕs basically what itÕs given me is the ability to say yes to whatever is happening. That's it part of my experience and how can I kind of widen my window of tolerance to be able to accept more into my life as to what's happening. [00:25:09.18] DAVID: Ok, so we have a couple minutes and I just want to ask you a question or two. What have you seen in your life shift ever since using TiPi? Now that you have TiPi as a tool for these emotions or trigger points that come up for you - how do you have to use it less now that you - you used it a lot when you first learned it? Or do you use it more because you notice these emotions a little bit more. Like what has shifted for you? [00:25:36.11] JOEY: Yeah, itÕs a constant evolution, which is really cool because I think there is things that I didn't realize we're hindering me before. That I have been able to like notice now. And then be able to use it in the moment. So, there is a way in which there is things from the past that still invade my life now - that when it happens and I am able to notice it then I can use TiPi on that. Uh and there is also things that you know we are constantly evolving and new experiences are always happening. So, there could be new things that are coming into my life you know whether its work or something that might frustrate me to where when I notice like I am really worked up right now. I can close my eyes, do the process and a few seconds later it becomes resolved in a way where I am not hit by it in the same way where I've heard from a client before where she is - it was like kind of more a relationship problem that they were having between husband and wife. And she was - when I did the process with her she is like wow - she is like normally that takes me about 2 weeks to get through something like that. Because its happened in her life many times. And she is like and we were able to do it in less than an hour. And this is something that I have to constantly you know do yoga or stretching or meditation or like all of these coping mechanisms that she has been able to use and it would still take her about 2 weeks to do that. And all in that time frame, her and her husband are still mad at each other. You know what I mean because they are both still figuring out what they are originally triggered by. And now she is able to resolve it in seconds - and be able to move forward with it. So that has definitely been my experience. You know being triggered by something that work - going through my head about all this stuff and then like when I notice that I am triggered itÕs like ok stop this chatter in my head and let me focus on the body and allow that energy to process and then once I have that stability in my body - my thoughts can have this new way of looking at that same experience and is very un - uninhibited way where before there was too much happening on both ends. [00:27:34.15] DAVID: It seems as though the first thing that people need to learn how to do is to stop. To stop and actually feel what is being felt. Because I wonder if as we're - acting out the part of the trigger - are we actually feeling or are we just filling a role that we feel like we need to fill because of the trigger? [00:27:58.14] JOEY: Completely. Yes, spot on. One of the people that I follow is Bruce Lipton. He's a cellular biologist uh and he does the biology of belief and that's a huge portion of what he is speaking about is the subconscious mind. And the way that we've been taught at very specific times in our life on how to react to things and that's one of them. I think that when we get triggered we go into this automatic mode that's in our subconscious and we play those out. So when we can become conscious enough to find those pieces and then we can process and completely -- for me personally that's been my moment of empowerment because now I can make a conscious choice about moving through these to where they are no longer invading themselves in my life because they did have a purpose at one time and now I don't want them to have a purpose. So, I want to be able to resolve them so that I can make my own conscious choices going through life. [00:28:50.04] DAVID: That's awesome. All right, so I got one more question for you. What is it about Naropa that has helped your path? Why is it the contemplative psychology program or approach that we have at Naropa - what is it about that - that has helped you along your way? [00:29:05.15] JOEY: Personal empowerment. Uh itÕs given me the ability to be able to - find myself at a deeper level. And like I said I had some of this before and at the same time it felt like it was just foundational ground work that lead to me Naropa to be able to build off that even more. And I mean initially I wanted to uh - become a psychologist - do talk therapy with people. I was going to go into the master's program and decided not to, but it was because Naropa gave me the ability to kind of look at my compass in a new way. So, I thought it was pointing one direction as I was going through the program and by the time I ended it I realized that I was actually wanting to become a doctor instead for classical Chinese medicine as well as naturopathy. Uh so I wanted to be able to put those two together and that in itself was a huge fear of mine. Because I have had - a hatred for mathematics - a huge fear around mathematics and choosing to go into medicine meant I had to go into all of that. And so, one TiPi has been helpful to get me through some of those triggers of mathematics as well as uh everything that I learned at Naropa to constantly believe in my ability to be able to align with my internal compass even if I don't always know what's happening. Uh it gave me the ability to actually like listen to that regardless of how much fear I have around that role of power that I am going to be in as a doctor. Uh as well as the arduous ten year path I decided to put on after my undergrad in order to reach that goal. [00:30:37.18] DAVID: That's a long compass needle right there. [00:30:40.20] JOEY: Yeah, right. And it feels right so there is something internally that is pushing me, and I feel like itÕs because of my education there. That gave me that ability to be like ok follow it. [00:30:49.00] DAVID: Yeah, and I feel your strength and I feel your power and your passion and I see - I see goodness coming out of all of this. I really appreciate you speaking with us today. It was really a pleasure and you are one of our first students to get to talk to. So, it was really great. So, thank you for being here. [00:31:04.14] JOEY: Yes, itÕs been wonderful for me as well. Thank you for having me. [00:31:07.14] DAVID: Awesome. So, I would like to thank Joey Marti to our podcast. He is a recent graduate of the Contemplative Psychology program. So, thanks for being here today. [00:31:18.12] JOEY: Yeah, thank you so much for having me. ItÕs been a pleasure. [MUSIC] On behalf of the Naropa community thank you for listening to Mindful U. The official podcast of Naropa University. Check us out at www.naropa.edu or follow us on social media for more updates. [MUSIC]