Rabbi Jason Bonder:       In a big situation, you got to dig deep, you've got to dig deep inside. There is a certain amount of belief and faith that you have to have in yourself, in the universe, that you will get to that next mile, and that you will get to that next step and I think that's informed my athletics practice and also my spirituality and how I understand my Jewish journey. 

Rabbi Deborah Waxman:     I'm Rabbi Deborah Waxman and I'm so happy to welcome you to Hashivenu, a podcast about Jewish teachings on resilience. I'm so happy to welcome today my guest, Rabbi Jason Bonder. Jason graduated from the Reconstructionist Rabbinical College in 2015 and he now serves as the associate rabbi of Congregation Beth or in Maple Glen, Pennsylvania. And Jason and I are going to talk today about embodiment in Judaism, about exercise and about being physically present and active in our bodies and in ways that that sustains our spirits, our brains, our hearts, our relationships, and we're going to do this from a Jewish perspective. So welcome, Jason. 

JB:       Thank you so much. It is an honor to be here and great to be back in this building here at RRC. 

DW:     It's great to have you. So we've been talking, you and I, about how to frame this conversation, because often when in these conversations we start with the Jewish and we work outword and there is a lot in Judaism about embodiment and about the body, about practices around the body. It's not an ascetic religion like strands of Christianity or strands of Eastern religion. There are commands that are directly oriented toward the body. There are practices around how we protect and maintain and even revere our bodies. Even as I'm hoping our conversation will be about beyond that, moving beyond that, but I wanted to just start with a baseline to talk about  Jewish perspectives on the body and your thoughts on what resonates most deeply with you when you think about embodiment? 

JB:       Sure. So I think, your opening really actually kind of describes how I came to both worlds, because by growing up both as an athlete and going to Jewish day school, these two things were both inspiring to me. They were interesting, but they had very separate tracks. It was only later on where these two paths collided and it really opened up many doors for me to understand my Judaism and my fitness life. And they really complement each other. It's a symbiotic relationship and sometimes it's hard to figure out like which one leads to which and which one inspires which --  I think is very much both coming together.

DW:     Will you tell the story about how they came together?

JB:       Sure. So, I mean, it definitely happened in many different ways, but I think most profoundly for me was I'm playing baseball at Muhlenberg college in Allentown. My Hillel director -- where I was working at Hillel as well at Muellenberg --  hands me this article that says, Hey, you know they're starting a baseball league in Israel. And so I went and tried out and next thing I knew I was on a flight to Israel to get paid to play baseball. It was just a remarkable thing, something playing at a Division III school I never thought I would get the chance to do. And so it was my very first trip to Israel was to go and play baseball. 

DW:     Is that right?

JB:       Yeah, at 21 years old. So, it was a tremendous experience that I found a lot of my eye-opening experiences both in the athletics world meeting, just incredible people who I got to play ball with. And at the same time, meeting all of these inspiring people who really helped to shape my Judaism. So it was a wonderful place where the two worlds came together. 

DW:     And you oriented yourself toward rabbinical school, not that long after that, right? 

JB:       Yes, very much so. So I knew that I wanted to do something in the Jewish studies world. And so came back, did a master's at the Jewish Theological Seminary, and then started reading a little bit of Kaplan during that time and found my way to RRC. 

DW:     That's great. 

JB:       Yeah.

DW:     Well, so when I knew you when you started as a student, one of the things that was really quite remarkable about you is that you showed up fit and visibly fit, and you were really clear throughout your studies, you were a very serious student, and that you wanted to not sacrifice your body while you were studying. 

JB:       Yes, very much so. So I came into our RRC about ready to run my first marathon, and I did that in Philadelphia and it was a wonderful experience and actually in a class with you, our learners' minyan that I was in, it really was this chance for me to really feel inspired by prayer. And that was at the time I would say in that situation, my daily runs sometimes were euphoric and wonderful, and I had that runner's high, and other days where I'll- "I got to get through this run."  All of a sudden I realized that that also was very much a part of what prayer can be, that some days there are these wonderful moments. I mean most special to me, like the first Tuesday morning davening at RRC was just always this amazing experience. And other mornings, struggling With prayer, whatever was going on in my life, but recognizing that actually through my marathon training that you know what? If I get through this day, I know that another good one's coming and that ultimately I'm working towards something, some goal to whatever that goal is to make myself, I guess a better athlete or a better davenner. And none in the way of just the words, but really opening up my heart to whatever it is I'm saying that day or need to say that day. 

DW:     I think that it really gets to the heart of what it means to commit to a practice. Whether that practice is a spiritual practice or whether that practice is a physical practice. It's the practice, it's the container and a lot of different things happen in the container, but if you've made that commitment, then there's something that's intrinsically...cultivating of resilience is what I want to say. There's something that holds us up if we commit to that practice, even as it's up and down, even as it's qualitatively different, but then when we look back and say, well, the commitment is to prayer, even as the experience is completely different, the commitment is to running. So for me, the growing edges, it's much easier for me to commit to spiritual practices than it is, for me, to commit to exercise practices. 

DW:     So I mean I have a very, very strong meditation practice --  my day, my morning feels off if I don't meditate or if I don't chant. With exercise, I'm just constantly beating myself up. Oh, I didn't exercise today where I really need to exercise, but I haven't quite broken through in that way. Where you've been able ... For you it's a yes, and it's a both. And for me, it still feels like they're oppositional somehow. 

JB:       Well, and I do think that I especially coming into rabbinical school, and I would still say now, I lean towards the exercise. It's part of how I grew up and I think it's enhanced my Judaism, because for a lot of ways and my Jewish journey, it's enhanced it because I think I'm able to draw on things that I know viscerally, like I know what it's like to get out on that run on a day where I just have to push a little bit more, and I understand that in my body in a way that then I can transfer that knowledge, maybe from my bones and my muscles up to either and/or both my heart and my head, and then I'm able to say, okay, this is what I need to transfer into my prayer practice or whatever spiritual practice it is I'm going into that day. 

DW:     It's very important for me to hear that. It's very powerful. You've also spoken to me about your relationship with God is also informed by your running practice. So can I ask you to say more about that? 

JB:       Yeah, absolutely. It's a phrase that I've heard, I think, even before my running days, but in baseball as well, that in a big situation you got to dig deep. You've got to dig deep inside. And that for a long time was just ingrained in me as this thing that I would draw upon to help me in my athletic endeavors. Whether it's mile 20 of a marathon and you just feel like you've hit the wall, and you have to reach down deep inside to figure out how you're going to get through this. How are you going to get past that mile? That to me is very much connected to my theology. I struggled with the idea of God being this being that is out there and somehow only out there, I felt that it was much easier for me to understand God as a force in the universe that helps us and that we can draw upon that fountain. 

JB:       One of my favorite ideas about or word plays in Rabbinic tradition is the idea that berakha and breykha are so closely tied-

DW:     So "blessing" and "fountain".

JB:       Yes, exactly right. So that the idea of blessing as a fountain that springs forth, I'm able to picture that  as a way that is very meaningful to me in my theology, that it comes from within us: that were created be-tzelem Elohim, in the image of God, and that very much that when I need that extra push, I can believe and I don't always use those words like belief and faith, but there is a certain amount of belief and faith that you have to have in yourself, in the universe that you will get to that next mile and that you will get to that next step. And I think that's informed my athletics practice and also my spirituality and how I understand my Jewish journey. 

DW:     It's so interesting because I also really resonate with some of the natural images that our traditional offers up for God and for me very related to "ma'ayan",  wellspring. And I think there are a lot of people who don't resonate with the image of God as king or ruler and who therefore think that they don't believe in God or they don't have access to religious language. And I think about a moment in my life when I was just really struggling and even though I don't believe in a personal God had been doing spiritual practice and asked for help from God not knowing what I was doing, but I'd never done that. That was a new stance for me, and I literally just said, I can't do this by myself, help. And just in the asking, I went from such a narrow place to such a place of expansiveness. 

DW:     And I think about that line from the psalms. We sing it in Hallel: From a very narrow place. I call to you, anani va-merkhav yah I was answered and brought out to this wide-open God filled space. And so that idea of,,, for me, I will never run a marathon. But I'm very proud that I did the breast cancer three-day, where I walked 60 miles over three days and there were these moments where I was, I just, it wasn't something I actually, I didn't have problem finishing any day, but I slept at home and at the end of the second day, which was, it was that day was a 23 mile day and at that point I'd walked 44 miles in two days and my wife was coming to pick me up and I didn't know where I was because they really preferred you to sleep there and I didn't know where I was.

DW:     And she said to me, you know, she was desperate to get to me because she could hear how tired I was. And she said, where are you? I said, I don't know, and I just burst into tears and  hung up the phone. And she resilient, resourceful as she is she found me, that's when I had to dig, like to ... It was actually after it was over. But in the aftermath.

JB:       I want to thank you for saying that because actually, as you said those words from Psalms, that actually brought an image to mind. Especially at the very end of a race, generally things get more narrow and it's also an opportunity to see the faces of the people who are there. And so it also reminds me that while I am digging deep in a lot of instances, I'm also able to reach out not so much to the transcendent God, but very much reaching out to people and to the people who have been there to support me. And the other big memorable race that I did was I did the Iron Man in 2014 and I still remember coming down the chute towards the finish line being so happy that I had dug deep and really gotten into this place that you could really call a spiritual place, to say I'm going to at some point ignore the soreness and all of the difficulty and seeing my wife and my parents and my in-laws all there. 

JB:       And actually, and at the time, my son who I didn't see yet, but was in Rina's belly. And so just knowing that all the things to come was just an amazing way... It was also a source of inspiration and strength. And I think it very much speaks to community and Kaplan's ideas, which I know you can speak to much better than I can. But the idea that God is within community and that God shows up when the community comes together. And when a community of family came together for me to finish that race, it was truly inspiring and certainly helped get me through it. 

DW:     It's so interesting you say that, Jason, because it's very helpful for me because I really have been struggling with an exercise practice and I'm at the age where I know that the more I commit to one, the better it will serve me because I really want to age healthfully and well.  And the community piece of it -- because I think I tend to think about exercise as a solitary activity, and hearing you who has really kind of prioritized exercise throughout your life, but to hear like the team spirit of the baseball or the faces of people as you finish a marathon or this communal support as you finishthe Iron Man. The exercise that's so easy for me to commit to is when I'm not traveling. There is a yoga class that I go to twice a week and I go to for the practice for sure. 

DW:     I'm much more likely to practice yoga in a class than I am on my own, even though I have the knowledge base and I have the mat and I have the space, and it's both for the larger practice, and in a sense it's also for the people who I see at this particular. I mean, it's the teacher for sure, but also the people who I see, and I think this is a core teaching of Judaism that lives in our bodies is with people. And however it is we bring it to life. It is rarely a solitary experience.

JB:       Yeah, for sure. And I think for you and I who are rabbis and also, just involved in Jewish life and in the physical world or the physical fitness world, there's a lot of connection there immediately. And it's also good to know that like it's not just us that like that. So CrossFit is a phenomenon that has just exploded over the past decade. And right in front of me, I brought in as part of the homework that I did, there was a New York Times article in 2015 and the title is "When Some Turn to Church, Others Go to CrossFit",  and it's a whole article about this idea that they captured a community element and a team aspect of fitness that helps people get there, because you're not just going for you. You're going because you have an obligation because there is someone else there who is expecting that you'll be there at 6:00 AM or 7:00 AM or 7 PM at night, whenever it is you go. And that community piece is really powerful and can play out. I think so many of those messages that I learned from being on teams on my life and I can't mention a team without mentioning my high school baseball team who they have stayed with me all these years. 

JB:       I know I officiated many of their weddings and that team has really helped me in my life moving forward and out of the sports realm and into the rest of my life and has taught me a ton of lessons. 

DW:     Well, so that, I mean there's the article you mentioned and there's this really fascinating project that was created by these wonderful people,  Casper ter Kuile and Angie Thurston. Casper and Angie were masters of divinity students at Harvard Divinity School and they noticed exactly that phenomenon:  that places like Soul Cycle or CrossFit or also sometimes arts based organizations were kind of taking on the roles that synagogues and churches used to play, as intentional communities of people -- sometimes across generations,  not always -- coming together into bonds of mutual support for a particular activity and then beyond and they started to look. They published a really interesting monograph. Now they've published a series, but the first one was "How We Gather" looking at ways that these newly emergent, many of them exercise-oriented or embodied practice communities were replacing, competing with, complementing, the more traditional religious structures within which you and I work. They're now working with a lot of other people as part of the On Being project, but they have been investigating and seeking to mutually influence both societies. 

DW:     I actually think, I didn't think, when we started this conversation, I was thinking mostly about embodiment on an individual level, but the fact of the matter is that science confirms what spirituality teaches and what religion teaches, that we are all interconnected, that our cells are bound up in each other and that we cannot simply focus on ourselves without also tending to the wellbeing of other people. I'm very moved that this is how the conversation has gone because it feels very important.  I think for me as someone who's trying to bolster my practice, I think one of the reasons it's hard for me is it feels selfish, or there's other things I should be doing or could be doing. And the idea that self-care is in the service of building up relationship and building up community, especially if I'm intentional about how I structure it --that feels really interesting and really compelling to me. 

JB:       I think it really is something that helps me as a rabbi, and I think in dealing --  I feel that also, the guilt piece of sneaking away for exercise, and especially being a dad of two young kids right now, like that's part of it too. It's not just my job but also my other roles that I play in my life. And to remind myself, and I think this goes back to the idea of how Hashivenu and resilience, that without that time to go away and be connected with something that means so much to me, but also helps my body, and helps who I am as an athlete. It will then help me become a better person. And I think it really runs right into this idea of Shabbat and that also, this core idea of, in Judaism, that after six days of work it is healthier to rest and then start refreshed. 

JB:       Which is something that I've heard. And because being a big fan of this podcast, I've heard Rabbi Jacob Staub and so many other people speak about it in conversation with you. For me, I can bring that also. And there are lessons that I've learned about Shabbat, from my physical activities and really, one of them is just the idea that in any training plan that you look up if you are a bodybuilder or you are an endurance athlete or you're a player of sports like basketball or baseball, there is a rest day built in, because it is a good idea whether it's spiritual or physical to come back refreshed and renewed. And actually the science says that it's really the days that you make the gains of what you're trying to do towards your goal, are on the off day, on the rest day. And I think that very much is translatable to Shabbat. 

DW:     I think that's exactly right. I mean, so I've talked mostly about my struggle, but when I was training for the Breast Cancer Three-Day, I got very compulsive about it, and I was following a training regimen, and I was really resistant to the rest because I think when I do things I tend to do them like 110%. And I was like, no, I 'vegot to walk and train every single day. And like that idea of pulling back, I had to really learn it. When I think about what I'm doing when I'm not exercising, which is mostly working all the time. And it's not sustainable, it's just profoundly not sustainable. I think for me, one of the most important teachings is the midrash that says, it's not that in six days creation was completed and then on the seventh day God rested. But that creation was completed by God resting on the seventh day. That the cycle of creation was in fact the full seven days and that the rest was part and parcel of the entire creation. 

JB:       I think that midrash goes hand in hand with my favorite blog post probably that I ever read. So being in the Iron man world, you get to become a fan of all of these top performers. Chrissie Wellington is, I believe, a four time Iron man, a Kona champion. And she's this incredible athlete. And I'm certainly a fan of hers. And she wrote this blog post about how she says, "I trained 24/7" and people say. "You train 24/7? How is that possible?" And she says, "Because the rest is part of the training -- that without that I can't move forward." And so the rest is just as integral as any swim or bike or run session that she's going to do in a given week. And that really leads to, I mean, doing what no one else had done before. 

DW:     Yeah. It's a great place for us to wind up, which is about trying to adopt a holistic view of how we spend our days and nights and weeks and months and years, how to do it in a way that is tending to our body, tending to our hearts, tending to our brains, tending to our ourselves and our relationships in our communities to try to come to some kind of understanding where there is - it is part of a whole rather than segmented or broken up. And it's one of the things that I'm constantly looking to in Judaism is that there is a sense of shleymut, there is a sense of completion and wholeness and complimentariness and there are a lot of different pathways toward it if we take the time and commit to the practices that will help us get there. 

JB:       Definitely.

DW:     Oh, thank you so much Jason. What an interesting conversation. 

JB:       This was a blast for me and really has helped me in my athletics journey and my Jewish journey as any conversation with you would. 

DW:     Thank you for giving me a lot to think about and I'll fill you in on how it goes. I want to thank my guest, Rabbi Jason Bonder for our wonderful conversation about a lot of different things about embodiment, practice, community, connection, holism, for more information you can find some of the resources that we talked about on hashivenu.fireside.fm. And you can also find additional resources on ReconstructingJudaism.org and on Ritualwelll.org. I'm Rabbi Deborah Waxman, and you've been listening to Hashivenu: Jewish teachings on resilience.