Ep. 153. Insights The future of banking and disruption FILE DETAILS Audio Length: 00:36:08 Audio Quality: Good Number of Interviewers: 2 Number of Interviewees: 3 Start of Audio JB: Welcome to Fintech Insider Insights. I’m Jason Bates, and this week, we’ve got a very special Insights show, that was recorded live at BBVA’s Global Summit last month. Our very own Simon Taylor chaired a panel about the future of disruption, alongside some fantastic guests from the industry. Let’s hear from him now. [Break] ST: Yes, and I’d like to bring up some guests. Thank you, first of all, for having me here, at BBVA’s Open Talent competition. Wonderful to be here. You’re going to get a little preview of our Fintech Insider show. Normally, we record this in a room, by ourselves, with some beers, so you guys are going to be my beer and alcohol. You guys are going to be my energy and my excitement and everything, and looking at the smiling faces, I’m feeling better than if I’ve had two beers, so thank you! We have got some amazing, amazing guests. First, I’m going to bring up Marko Wenthin, who is the co-founder at solarisBank. Marko, if you can join us. [Applause] ST: Hey, Marko. Next, we have Leanne Kemp, from Everledger. Leanne, how are you? LK: Good, good, good. [Applause] ST: And last, but by no means least, we have Elena from BBVA. Elena Alfaro, the Global Head of Data. [Applause] ST: Score one for the home team. Okay. Well, I could try and introduce you guys, but I think you will do a far better job. So, Marko, do you want to tell us a little bit about who you are, and who solarisBank is? MW: Thanks, Simon. Thanks, first of all, for having me here. My name’s Marko Wenthin, I’m a co-founder of solarisBank. Why do I do that? Because I’m driven by one fact, and that’s been for over 25 years now, to-, to change banking. I’ve been a banker for all this time, built up a couple of banks, built up a couple of tech companies, and the last one is solarisBank, which I built up two years ago, which is a very, very young company. The first actual banking as a platform tech company with a full German banking licence, and what we can actually do is help everybody in the digital space become a bank. ST: Everybody in the digital space can become a bank with Solaris. I like the sounds of that. Marko, thank you very much. Leanne, do you want to take the floor? LK: Hello, everybody. It feels good to be home at BBVA. So, Everledger was discovered in 2015, in part with BBVA, we were the Open Talent winner in 2015, so it’s nice to be back with friends. Everledger began using the very best of emerging technologies, with blockchain and smart contracts and artificial intelligence, to bring transparency to opaque supply chains. And we began in the diamond industry, tracking diamonds from the source of the mine to the market, to bring a trust ledger to the world, and plumb the sustainability rails, to ensure that we have ethical trade. And we’ll talk a little bit further about the global financial crisis that’s sitting, now, at the heart of the diamond industry, particularly around banking. ST: Very cool. Leanne, thank you so much. And Elena, by-, last but by no means least, tell us a little bit about what you do for BBVA please? EA: Okay. So, hello, everybody, and thank you for having me here. So, I actually have two roles in BBVA. One is, I lead all the open innovation activities. Basically, thanks to a fantastic team, like Marisol, and all the others that are all around, I want to thank you from here, and then I also lead the Centre of Excellence in Data Science and Artificial Intelligence in-, in the bank. ST: Wow. EA: Yes. ST: Greedy [laughter] two jobs. EA: I do have two jobs. And two bosses. ST: How do you hold all that together? That’s impressive, very impressive. Okay, cool. So, the title of our session is “The Future of Banking”. So, we’ve go to think about, where is banking today, and what are some of its problems, I think, before we can address that, and Marko, you and I were talking, before we came on stage, about some of those key challenges. Do you want to just, kind of, recap that conversation for me? What do you think the big challenge is right now? Where are we, and where do we need to get to? MW: I think in order to understand where we are standing today, just look-, let’s look maybe ten years back, and where have we been at this time? And I’m not talking about the financial crisis of 2008, but I’m talking about the technology. When we just look around, what has happened in the last five to six years, in terms of technology, everybody is using handheld devices in a way that, exactly, it’s so that you don’t actually need a computer anymore. So many things have changed, the way how we communicate, how we consume, how we interact with other people, with our friends, with our partners, etc., and there’s one thing, and it’s one of the biggest challenges which I see for banking, is that it hasn’t kept up, as many other industries, as well, it hasn’t kept up with the-, with the pace of the technological change. Now, it’s not just about technology, but that’s why I’m saying, it’s a change of customer behaviour. They do some-, they expect something from the banks, that the banks, in many cases, can’t deliver, just because of the running behind the technology. And this is, well, from my perspective, one of the largest challenges we’ve seen, we are seeing, and there’s a whole bunch of things coming next to it (ph 05.44), in order to deal with that. ST: So, the customer expectation has changed, because the device in which they interact with their day to day life has changed, and it’s probably going to change again, as I think Derek and Carlos were saying in their opening session, so we’ll come back to that. But Leanne, you said something interesting a second ago. You said that the global financial crisis has shaped us, and you’re now seeing that in your own industry. Explore that for me. LK: Yeah, it’s interesting, you just talked about the fact that everyone has a device in their hand, and they’re really mobile-enabled, yet the diamond industry is 500 years in the making, and largely, the entire industry is still reliant upon a chit of paper, a handshake, and a promise to pay. And it’s no short of the headlines, particularly over the last year or two, the number of large banks that have pulled out considerably from the industry, the more recent being Standard Chartered, and it’s provided a $5 billion shortfall to the middle section of the market. So, we’re faced with a real problem. We’re faced with a problem of trust. But, just like China had very little infrastructure upon which it could build a new digital banking endeavour, the industry, of course, has this opportunity. So, whilst it has a large challenge, we see it as a massive opportunity for change. ST: That is a very shiny opportunity, without question. LK: Let’s hope! ST: Let’s hope. So, Elena, talk to me a little bit about how you think about this, when you look at Open Talent, and when you look at data. BBVA, of course, has-, has an open API marketplace, it has been running open talent now for nine years. It seems to me like you’ve understood the challenges, but when you look at the industry now, what do you see as the main problems and challenges that we’re still wrestling with, as the pace of change seems to get faster every day? EA: So, I mean, there are many different aspects to your question, but I would focus, maybe, on the speed of change. ST: Mm-hm. EA: So, basically, what we see is that-, we can see a lot of companies doing fantastic things outside, and we call them, to help us learn from them, but then we are not in shape, sometimes, to-, you know, to learn that fast. ST: Mm-hm. EA: So, we might be interested in something, but then our processes, our internal structures, don’t let us take the steps that we want to take. So, I see that the interest is there, I see some maturity in the fact that we are not that delighted by the idea, and we are more focused on the execution part, but I think that, still, we need to be better in the way we absorb the innovation that comes from outside, and we are working on that. ST: I guess a lot of those processes that you talk about, as well, were built for a different era. They were built-, they were paper processes, they were analogue processes, and for analogue products, being sold to analogue clients, and trying to make those go faster is really, really hard. And Leanne, you talked about the paper processes in the diamond industry having the same problem. It seems like that is the problem across the entire economy, is, surely, we’re wrestling with these paper processes and trying to digitise them. But, as a CEO of a startup, how do you think about executing quickly? What enables you to move quickly, and how do you think you can do that, but still protect customers? LK: It’s simple. It’s survival. We can’t. We can’t not execute. We have to. And for every minute that we’re not executing, and for every minute we’re not working, and walking towards a commercialisation path, we are-, we’re at the threat, we’re at the threat of our own survival. So, we are motivated by surviving [laughter]. ST: You’ve gotta move fast. Marko? MW: May I weigh in on this one? Because you said a word which I don’t like, which is “digitising”. ST: Yes. MW: This is-, the point is not digitising analogous processes, but, rather, looking at the whole thing from a more digital design perspective. So, actually, first of all, question what is the customer behind? What is the real solution? It’s not-, we, as bankers, we still think a little bit too much in our categories, that this customer is a consumer, and this customer as a consumer gets a consumer lending, and so on and so forth. But that’s not the point-, ST: Lending. Savings-, MW: Exactly. ST: Mortgage. MW: So, the world has changed, in that perspective, that the customer expects something entirely different. So, you don’t wake up in the morning, and Elena and I, we have had this chat, and BBVA is very much on this track, the customer doesn’t wake up in the morning and say, “Okay. Today is the day I finally get my €10,000 loan.” It’s nothing that you actually aspire to. But what you do do, is that you say, “Today is the time when I actually purchase a house, or the car which I’m looking forward to,” and the-, the loan is nothing else than a means to an end. And this is what we, as bankers, have to understand. That it’s the customer. Everybody talks about customer centricity, and so on and so forth, yes, that’s buzzword bingo, but, really, to understand what is the context behind what the customer really wants. ST: The context is-, is everything. Context is king. My co-founder at 11FS, Jason, who may or may not be in the room, often talks about the difference between digitising paper processes, and being truly digital. MW: Yes. ST: And what does being truly digital mean, and starting at the customer. Elena, I’m sure you can give me some example, though, of where you’ve had to start thinking that way, and how, working with data, you can do that a lot more. You can see beyond the product line, and see into the customers’ lives. Can you give me some examples of where you’ve played with that, and where you may be doing more of that in the future? EA: Yeah. So, basically, data gives you the possibility to personalise at scale, and that opens a complete new door to the services that we provide. So, of course, phase one has to be about do it yourself, and digitising what you are doing at the branch, but the next step, whenever you can personalise in a digital way, you can start offering something that is like transparent banking, in the sense that you can hide all the transactions behind people’s lives, which is what matters for us. This has two main goals. One, with a focus on relieving stress from people’s lives, so giving peace of mind to people, so they don’t have to take care of the boring part of banking, and they can trust that everything is under control. And, for instance, I, at least, personally, would like something, like, a message each week saying, “Look, Elena, everything is alright, as expected,” or, “Just look at these two transactions that might not be okay.” So, we skip that part, and then we focus on the real goals that this person has, but they are not financial goals, they are life goals. ST: Yes. EA: And we are delivering, or developing products or services in both senses. ST: So, when you talk about life goals, give me an example of somebody’s life goal, and, again, to quote Jason, he often talks about Open Banking not being about banking, and not being about APIs, but being about those end to end customer journeys. You mentioned that I don’t think, “I want a loan,” you think, “I would like a car.” Are you modelling those sorts of behaviours, and are you thinking about who the partners are, in those end to end journeys? EA: Yes. So, sometimes, we tend to think life events are the crucial things to be taken care of, which is true. For instance, when you buy a house, you want a house, and it’s a pain, everything that you have to do. So, we are trying to-, you know, to extend the experience of getting a mortgage, which is part of it, to the whole homebuying process, and we have several pieces already delivered. Like, for instance, now you can go, in Spain, and soon in other countries, you can go and search for house prices that are available in the market, so you can have that, and then we will extend that, also, to the management of the whole buying process. But you can also take that to daily events, like shopping or whatever. You know, everything that you want to do with money, on a daily basis, you can help there, and not focus only on the payment, on the transaction, but also on the-, on the whole thing. For instance, when you buy, we could recommend places to discover, or the best deals, etc. ST: Very cool. [Advert break] ST: Leanne, a moment ago, Elena said this word that stuck in my mind, which, to enable that, you need the transparency of what’s happening with customers, and they need to feel empowered that that transparency isn’t being overreached in some way. This is a concept I’m sure you’re pretty close to. How have you thought about that, when you’re dealing with a complex industry like diamonds, and complex sets of ownership? You’ve got to balance that privacy, and wanting to have my own privacy, but the value that data about a customer can really bring. What do you-, how do you tread that line? LK: So, I guess the industry at large, whether it be banking or insurance, really looks through an optics of risk, and they’ve typically looked at the relationship with the risk portfolio with the customer. So, KYC, of course, is a very large term that’s being used, and is core to-, to the financial services industry. But we, sort of, looked at it in a different way, and we said, “Look, if we could uniquely identify gemstones, or diamonds, or objects of value, art, wine, watches, collectibles, things that are dumb but expensive,” and considered it from the lens of “know your object”, KYO, instead of know your customer, and bring the marriage of those two things together, the risk associated with, whether that be a piece of property, or whether that be a diamond, of course, gives the transparency needed, to be able to underpin the transaction itself. Now, the diamond industry has a further set of complications, but, of course, we’ve seen governments around the world, whether that be in Britain or Australia, start to understand that the sourcing of minerals or gemstones, even rare metals extrusions, is hugely important, because it’s mother earth’s assets. So, we have issues in terms of sustainability, and ethical supply chains, and no longer is it appropriate for a large corporation, whether that be Apple, or large companies, at large, to not know your supplier, or your supplier’s supplier. So, this is now starting to become baked in legislation. It’s a hugely complex field, but at the very core of blockchain, if you start to peel back the technical layers, we have some of the most transformative technologies of our time coming together and converging. So, there is now no longer a reason why we aren’t able to provide digital twins of objects, houses, autonomous cars, and understand that object at a level where the financier, ultimately, is financing the object, through the eyes, or the lending vehicle, of a person. So, KYO is something that I think is going to be on the lips. ST: So, know the object, know the person, know the rules around them, and know their tolerances of what they’re happy with and what they aren’t, and bake that in to your processes, and really rethink your processes, are what I’m hearing as, kind of, key, key learnings from that. LK: And the biggest takeaway, we’ve worked in very, very deep senses (ph 17.55) of cryptography, and we’re starting to see governments understand the threat associated with cyber, and privacy preserving mechanisms that are hugely important to our own personal data, and the control or the utilisation of that data, or the provenance of the data of me, is actually something that is core to this, beyond just saying it’s the data that is spewing out of the car to tell you how fast it’s travelling, or that I’m speeding, and so therefore my insurer knows that I’m a huge risk to myself on the road, let alone others. So, the combination of that coming together cannot really be delivered in a true sense without the core, sort of, functions of these new technologies. ST: So, I like to think about a bank as the place that not only lends, but that looks after the things that are most important to me. And in the digital age, what is more important to me than my identity, who I am, and my data? Marko, how do you balance that? You’ve built a platform with a banking licence, you have other people using that platform. MW: Yes. ST: You obviously have a fiduciary responsibility there, to make sure that people are protecting that, and were do people play a role in your organisation? Because you’ve been very much bank as a platform. MW: Yes. ST: What’s the future of humans? What’s the competitive advantage of a human working for a bank in the next five to ten years? If the platform has to manage data and security, what are all the humans doing? MW: How much time have you got? ST: [Laughter] 15 minutes and 43 seconds. MW: [Laughter] okay. ST: But you can’t have all of it. MW: Right. No, let’s try to split your question into a couple of sub-questions. First of all, what about the data, right? And Elena and I, we were talking about it, first of all, customer data already implies who the data belongs to, right? It’s the customer, and it’s not the bank or the company which is dealing with the data in the first place, right? So, from this perspective, we have, obviously, exactly that-, that risk to take, as well as the-, the obligation to make sure that the customer can have this data, and can be-, can be doing something with his data, right? And this is done by bringing in artificial intelligence, and all those things which we have, not using them ourselves, but rather, put the customer in the position that he uses it himself. Basically, I like this idea of Madiva, BBVA basically, you have such a transparency with the houses, etc., that it’s an embedded process in our everyday lives, and the financing becomes almost completely invisible. And what is this consisting of? Entirely of data. And the data which is being used by the customer, and the customer gives us, or BBVA, or other companies, a certain, let’s say, set of rules in which we can actually act-, ST: They give you a mandate, almost. MW: They give us a mandate, to help them do something, and not the other way around. ST: Mm-hm. Because they don’t want to be managing-, MW: Right. ST: A million check boxes-, MW: Exactly. ST: Can you imagine the user experience of, like, every time somebody comes and asks you for a bit of data-, MW: Absolutely. ST: “Would you like this?” like, I get scared enough when a new app asks me for 15 permissions-, MW: Yes. ST: Never mind my bank asking me every two minutes. MW: But this is-, and that’s one of the-, the-, we see where the banking is going, from our perspective, completely invisible. That’s-, it’s-, it’s not about banks anymore, but it’s about the actual transaction, and that’s what I like about this-, this whole approach of contextual banking, that’s best explained with the-, the Uber experience, right? Uber has got to a point where you actually say, “I want to get from A to B,” right, and I can see the driver, and when I was in Argentina the other day, it’s-, it’s a country which is not known for its safety on the streets, right? This is-, you have to be careful, especially as a gringo, as myself, and-, [Laughter] MW: I used to live in Argentina for many years, so I know a little bit of this country, but the point is, I get the Uber driver, I know what car this is, I know the person, etc., I see the rating, and then he brings me from A to B, and I get out, and I don’t have to do anything anymore. It’s-, there are so many processes running behind, but what was my core purpose? It was getting from A to B, and nothing interfered. ST: Everything’s designed around that purpose. MW: Exactly. ST: Elena, I want to pick up a point I mentioned a moment ago, though, is if, the bank is getting out of your way, if it’s just disappearing into the background, there might not even be a glass interface, as Derek was saying earlier, it’s completely disappeared into the background. What are all the humans doing? Is there creativity? Is there empathy? And how does that play in to those experiences? EA: So, are you talking about Her [laughter]? The movie Her? ST: Yeah-, well, yeah, yeah. EA: So, to me, it’s not that important that the interface is a glass or is a voice. I mean, this will be whatever it has to be. The important thing is the intelligence you are providing to people, and how useful you are. ST: Mm-hm. EA: So, the other day, I was thinking of this, and I was thinking of even having this, do you remember Clippy, the Microsoft Word small thing that-, ST: Clippy. EA: This is the first bot-, ST: God bless Clippy. EA: We ever interacted with. And I prefer Clippy with a couple of good advices, than Samantha from Her telling me, “Buy this pension fund, because it is (? 23.17).” ST: Yes. EA: I mean, to be extreme. ST: It’s-, yes. EA: So, to me, it’s more, what is the intelligence that you put behind it, and how is the interaction, how is the experience? And how useful? More than if the interaction is on voice or on whatever. ST: Mm-hm. So, I was speaking to somebody at Wealthbank a couple of days ago, and they said when they’d surveyed their customers, the thing that they found was, more often than not, what they were calling the call centre for, the number one reason was, “Tell me I’ve done it right. Just reassure me that everything’s going to be okay. It doesn’t matter that the computer, or the machine said it, I want a person to tell me that it’s going to be okay.” And that empathy, I think, probably still has a role in the future. EA: Yeah, but I think that we have to build on that. Because we cannot just jump from something that is-, “These people are here just to sell me stuff,” and jump to something like a, you know, “I can trust this to run my account automatically.” There is a path, a learning path that we have to take with our customers, and we will-, we have to start with small things, that prove that what we are telling you is in your own interest-, ST: Mm-hm. EA: Instead of just trying to jump. ST: You’ve got to earn the trust. EA: And we have to iterate a lot on this, so we learn, and they learn how to interact with machines. Because the thing is, that if we really want to be personalised, truly personalised services, this has to be done through machine learning, not by humans. ST: So, I wonder if-, so, I wonder if, historically, humans were doing machine-like process transactional work, and we were trying to expect machines to do the emotional work, whereas actually, we had that backwards. The machines can do all of the transactional things for us, and then we can put a human face at the beginning of it. Leanne, you work in a very business to business context, you deal with people all the time, especially in corporate world and the SME world. People still buy from people. Where does the machine really create the experience, and how do those two come together, do you think? Do you think that it’s going to be crucial for the diamond industry to still be built on people in ten years? And do you think certification helps? LK: The-, the industry has been predicated from day one on relationships, and you are right, people do business with people, and I don’t think that that will change. It would be a shame for society at large if we lost connection with feeling, emotion, and purpose and endeavouring. So, I think, as technical leaders, and corporations around the world, we need to be sure that that important element of human interaction remains centric to all decisions that we make, in terms of these new forms of technology. ST: So, we’ve got new forms of technology. You do a lot with trust, you do a lot with helping people believe that what the technology is telling them is true. We’ve talked a little bit about data, we’ve talked a little bit about identity. How does-, do you see that coming together? If I’ve got this trust, or the provenance in something, I can-, can I build a reputation around it? Can I-, what can I do? What’s new? LK: So, typically, our industry’s really resided on experts, gemmologists, that have a particular skillset to identify diamonds, and over the course of the last, sort of, 30 or 40-odd years, there’s been an evolution of both the stones themselves. So, in the 1930s, GE created synthetic diamonds, mostly for the purposes of blade saws and drill bits, but in the last ten years, we’ve seen a massive explosion of new forms of technology, enabling synthetic diamonds to be gem quality standards. And now there is a concern, and a confusion within the industry, on two levels. Firstly, are those synthetic stones, and unfortunately, they have been, swapped out, in terms of peppering the supply chain? So, how do we provide enough level of technology and assurance, and visibility over the pipeline, to be able to ensure that that diamond that was mined is the one that’s being sold to you in the retail outlet, and has full disclosure? ST: I think that’s a really interesting point. How do I prove that to you? LK: Yes. ST: And especially in your industry, and, I guess, much like where banking’s going, the glass will disappear. Elena, do you think that there are things that you can do with data, in an Open Banking world, in an open ecosystem, in which there are many partners that might not carry the BBVA brand, and the BBVA experience, but you are there behind the scenes. Do you think that data gives you an advantage, if you truly understand? LK: We-, we see ourselves as the Intel Inside for the industry. We position ourselves very clearly, in that respect, to enable the right set of tooling to provide a co-evolution of that industry at large. And it can’t be done without-, without data. We eat data for breakfast, lunch, dinner. ST: Mm-hm. LK: Everything is about data, and the interpretation of that. But, more importantly, it’s the marriage of, still experts, in field and in market, and it’s the fine balance between man and machine. And the ability, not only, to identify the machine that does the scanning, but is that machine held with integrity? Has it been calibrated correctly? Is that machine of health? So, this, sort of, fine line between the explosion of IoT, and the marriage, and there’s still a need for deep, deep, deep-seated industry experts. ST: So, I want to pose the question to Elena now, what is the future of banking? We’ve talked about data, we’ve talked about some of the challenges with the customer expectations changing. Where do you see the future going, and what’s the customer doing in five, ten years? What’s new? EA: So, my experience tells me that my predictions fail, so-, no, I mean, it’s basically what we’ve been talking about the whole morning. So, it’s trying to make banking really more useful, and for that, we’re going to have to use all the data, not only probably banking data, in order to give truly personalised services. Because, for instance, what can’t be done today with data in terms of picture recognition, so you get a bunch of pixels, and you can identify what is in the picture. This is something that we-, today, we are not able to do with banking transactions yet. So, whenever we can take a transaction for any of you, and draw the picture of yourself, then we will start giving this type of really personalised and useful stuff. And we are not there yet, we will evolve in the following years. ST: In KFC, in China, you can walk in, and, at a kiosk, you can select what food you want, and your face recognises it immediately, and you can just walk straight away. You don’t even need to get your phone out of your pocket. And I think that sort of stuff will happen. Another great example I heard is that a lot of organisations are using satellite imaging. Satellite imaging is now so cheap, and machine learning is now so cheap, that they can see where car parks are empty or full, for which retail stores are going to do well, and how they’ve going to invest. Which fields are doing well this year, for risk and for lending to farmers and so on. We’re staring into an interesting world, Marko. Where do you see us going? MW: I think that there is so much going on that you can’t even start to begin where it’s going, and I think anybody who says he has a clear clue of where the direction is going, I think is essentially wrong, because tomorrow it might be completely different. Just-, just look at-, we’ve been talking about blockchain, now, for many, many years, but we are still to see a big breakthrough, but, once this happens, it will, yet again be a completely different game. So, as a lack of looking into the future, and then seeing which direction you can go, the only thing what you can do is actually prepare yourself for that. What does that mean, to be-, to be always on the watch, what’s-, what’s going on? Being-, adapt to what’s going on in-, in-, with your clientele, with your buyer, with your investors, with your friends, etc., and how do you make that? Certainly not by having, I don’t know, innovation labs, because innovation labs are, kind of, closed environments which are not connected to the outside world, so, what is much better to shape the future of banking is actually getting things out, test them in the market. ST: Mm-hm. MW: Even if they are substandard, okay, they will be, in the first iteration, but you just look at how the social commerce has evolved. Everybody brings out alpha products, right? Alpha. Alpha A, alpha 1, 2, 3, 4 versions. You have to try that out, and what works, fail fast, try it again, get something else out. ST: So, what you’re saying is, prioritise action over planning. Prioritise learning-, MW: Oh, absolutely. Yes. ST: Execution is everything. And what are your tips for executing successfully? You’ve run a startup now, it’s 100 people-, MW: Yeah. ST: You’ve grown, you’ve executed. MW: There is a point, you have-, there is a balance, obviously. You have to make a certain planning process, in order to actually see where you’re going, but when you’re just, you know, from a startup world, and I’ve started a couple of companies, so, you see, when you tend a little bit to the chaos side, and don’t plan anything, in many cases, it doesn’t work out either. So, I think it’s-, it’s very important to have a game plan-, ST: Mm-hm. MW: But don’t drill it down to the nth detail, because then you concentrate on actually brushing up the axle (ph 32.19), rather than brushing up the product. Getting the product out, that is what (? 32.25). ST: So, have an idea of where you want to execute-, MW: Yes. ST: Where you want to be-, MW: Yes. ST: But leave yourself enough room to learn as you go. MW: Exactly. You need a direction, because-, you need a direction and you need a target, otherwise you have nothing to-, to measure yourself against. But leave leeway, because tomorrow’s going to be different. Tomorrow’s going to be raining. There’s a lot of things going on tomorrow. That’s why you have to be always so flexible, that things are not going as planned. ST: So, what I’m hearing is that the future of banking requires understanding that the interface with the customer may disappear-, MW: Absolutely. ST: We’re going to have to focus on data a lot more, and we’re going to have to get faster at executing. MW: Yes. ST: Leanne, is there anything that you would say, from your experience of having built a startup, as well, on-, on execution, and how you’ve managed it? And a winner, of course, of Open Talent. LK: I-, I actually don’t want to answer that question, not because I’m avoiding it, but I want to say something that is really plaguing me. We have been speaking, for quite some time, in the financial services industry, about banking the unbanked. ST: Mm-hm. LK: And, typically, we see this in emerging markets, whether that be in LatAm, or in China, etc. But, if we cast our mind, given we have tectonic plate shifts happening in industry, we have industries such as diamond, the diamond industry’s been around for 500 years, and largely hasn’t progressed too far down a digitisation method. So, we’re seeing entire industries now becoming the unbankable, because there isn’t an uptake of this technology, and the diamond industry is $250 billion. Today, it faces the largest crisis that it’s ever seen in the last 150 years. Given the fact that we had so many catastrophe events globally, whether that be through the formation of global warming, the insurance industry is now sitting on its knees. So, we will also see sectors of the world where, the coastline of Miami is likely to be underwater within the next 15 to 20 years, yet those property portfolios, and the developers, that have largely enabled themselves in that area, will now become unbankable, because of these catastrophe events. So, having an awareness around that, I think, is a really-, ST: What are the-, what are the macro shifts that are going to change the world, therefore how do you build a culture, and an adaptability, and an execution capability that allows you to move at the speed of tomorrow? LK: So, to answer your first question that I didn’t want to answer, it is to understand what is the existential crisis that sits upon us, either in our roles, as employees, either as a CEO and running our own companies, or focusing on an industry at large, and to understand what that existential crisis is, and to go there, to lean in to that, and then execute upon it, is really what drives. ST: Well, I think that’s the perfect note to end on. Ladies and gentlemen, will you thank my panel. [Applause] ST: If you like what you heard, you can find out more at fintechinsider.com. Thank you very much, thank you. Thank you. [Break] JB: And on that note, this wraps up another great show. As always, if you want to get in touch, you can find us on Twitter @FintechInsiders, or on Facebook at our Fintech Insider page, or even on YouTube, for exclusive content. If you like what you’ve heard this week, don’t forget to subscribe to our podcast, and please, please, please leave us a review on iTunes. That’s all for now. Thanks for listening. End of Audio