Ep. 226. 11FS Presents One Fintech Nation - Bursting the London Fintech Bubble START OF AUDIO 00:00:00 SK: Welcome to One Fintech Nation, in collaboration with Tech Nation, that's a lot of rhyming words, but I'm Simon Taylor, and today, we're bringing you the first in our four-part series of shows, which aims to showcase the UK fintech scene. We want to burst the London fintech bubble, and talk about UK fintech successes across the whole country. It's not just London. We're going to take a look at the under-the-radar success stories across the UK, particularly those outside of London, and learn how the UK can work better together, as one united fintech kingdom, not a series of regional silos. We'll explore how UK fintech can utilise cross-regional network effects, to come together as a whole, and tackle issues such as financial inclusion, financial literacy, and how to survive and thrive as a leader on the international fintech scene. Are we going to see a Beatles of fintech any time soon, especially in a post-Brexit world? In this episode, we're going to be focusing on breaking out of London. We'll be exploring, is London a fintech bubble, and if it is, is that a problem? What's going on outside the London bubble, and why are these amazing ventures kept slightly hidden? And how can we try and bring all of this great work together, under one umbrella of UK fintech? We're putting this show together in partnership with Tech Nation, who have just launched, this week, formerly, they were Tech City UK and Tech North, but they've rebranded as Tech Nation, to reinforce their own goals, and to bring UK fintech together. GM: Tech City was created six years ago, under Cameron, to support what was happening in the east of London, so the emerging tech scene. ST: And this is Greg Michel, Fintech and Insurtech Lead at Tech Nation. GM: And that evolved in to Tech North, as well, which was located in Manchester, and was supporting the entrepreneurial community up in the north. Um. Now, due to the evolving nature of the tech system, tech ecosystem, both in the north and the south, and also outside pressures, like, uh, Brexit, which definitely accelerated the change, we merged and rebranded the two companies in to one, which became Tech Nation, with the idea to very much create a network of networks, um, which would help the best and most ambitious entrepreneurs, uh, grow in the UK. So, we have now this ambition to open new hubs, uh, or to have presence in-, in new hubs, that we'll roll out in the next two years, and we're hoping, again, to create the connections between the most talented entrepreneurs in the UK, and make sure that, uh-, that the country, as a whole, is getting as strong as possible. So, there's a couple of ways that we are going to do that. I think the first one is definitely by shining a light on what is happening in the regions at the moment, and so we very much want to, uh, highlight, just like we did in the Tech Nation report, the incredible tech innovation that is happening outside of the main hubs. So, that is going to be the first thing, just shine a light, because some people might not be aware of it. So, then we are going to, um, have people on the ground, called a National Entrepreneur Engagement Team, and what they are going to do, basically, is be our ambassadors on the ground, and make sure that the connections are made in between hubs. I think this is something that we very much want to, uh, create, or to reinforce, is the communication between the different hubs. The programmes that we have will also be targeted at being-, uh, at national, uh, companies, so basically, we want to attract the best companies from all over the UK, which is very much what we're trying to do here, with the fintech programme. And this is going to be reflected, also, with other programmes. As you can see now, already, in the Future Fifty programme, which is our flagship programme, for later-stage companies, we already have a very important percentage of companies that are located outside of the UK. So, this is very much a testament, uh, of the fact that, you know, nowadays, you can really start a company from everywhere, it can be Newcastle, it could be Belfast, it can be, you know, Bournemouth. Um. Nothing really prevents you from creating, uh, a unicorn, anywhere in the UK, we want to recognise that, and make sure that these entrepreneurs are supported, wherever they start their business. ST: So, has London been a fintech bubble? Greg certainly thinks so. GM: So, um, having been in London now for a cumulative nine years, I definitely think that London is a bit of an echo chamber. The difference, the sheer difference in perception, um, of, uh, London and the rest of the-, the tech ecosystem. There are great, great things that are happening elsewhere, and I think that in London, we're a bit, probably, guilty of, uh, self-congratulating, a little bit, and forgetting that, you know, London is not self-sustaining, it just needs to have the rest of the UK, uh, as well. So, there-, there are great, great companies that come from-, from elsewhere in the UK, and it's-, there are more and more of them. And I think this is a great reminder that, yes, London is a great pool of talent, there is a lot of very successful companies that have sprung out of London and the southeast, but now we need to recognise, also, that due to the maturing of ecosystems everywhere else in the UK, we also have great companies springing from everywhere, and talent is also flowing there. ST: Being potentially guilty of being within the London bubble ourselves, we wanted to find out more, and get some regional perspectives. We spoke to some contributors from across the UK fintech scene, to get their view. Notably, all four of them were from fintechs based outside of London. So, from an outside perspective, do they think London's a bubble? LW: I think-, I think there's definitely a bubble, and you kind of feel that, sitting outside of the sector, because, you know, many of the things, for example, that I'm invited to, are London-centric, um, and so to be part of that network, easily part of that network, you kind of have to be going down to London on a frequent basis, which, you know, I actually-, ST: So, Lisa Wood, the CMO at Atom, a challenger bank based in Durham, and they're from the northeast of England. LW: I think, from a fintech perspective, I think it's actually a really good thing that we have a real hub, um, and I think we have an identity, through London, of being a global, sort of, fintech centre, and I think that's great, because it attracts investment in to the UK. I think the bit for me is, I'd just like to see it shared around a little bit more. It-, it's a bit of a self-fulfilling, um, and self-sustaining ecosystem in London, um, out in the regions, that needs to be nurtured more, um, and it needs to be much more proactively championed, I think. RT: Yeah, I'm Richard Theo, CEO and Co-Founder of Wealthify.com. You can't escape the fact that London seems to have attracted the-, all the success, and all the money, and you can-, it's never more evident than when you look at property prices. And there's a pretty good reason for that. I mean, I think some of the research says that 80% of all fintech businesses are based in London today, so 20% elsewhere. And that's, sort of, natural, you know, the-, the-, the City of London is the financial services capital of Europe, really, today, so it's-, it's not surprising that-, that London has become the-, the primary centre for fintech. But look, we see-, we've got-, I could sit here and, sort of, probably speak for five minutes on a list of different companies in Cardiff and South Wales, Wales more generally, who are in the fintech space. You know, we have a-, a FTSE 100 company in Cardiff, in Admiral, and we have lots of offices for lots of other big financial services businesses, and I'm-, I'm really confident that, you know, that will only grow. We also, importantly, are, of course, only two hours from London, so actually, when you consider locations outside London, you do need to get to London, to see and meet people, and network. You know, for me, it's-, it's two hours on the train to the centre of London, so that's really, uh-, you know, really relatively easy to, sort of, access, so, good connectivity and communication. ST: Here's Chris Sier, and he's actually the Fintech Envoy for the North of England. CS: There is this, sort of, um, singularity, that drags all attention and eyes in to London, um, and so there is a kind of branding and marketing thing that has to go on, um, and it's-, you know, it is really cool, that the Treasury has now expanded this Fintech Envoy programme, um, to Wales, Northern Ireland, Scotland, another one in England. They've kind of expanded this remit, because they recognise that they need champions from outside of London to do it. I think I'm the only one that's not based in London-, ST: James Varga is the CEO and Co-Founder of The ID Co., based in Edinburgh. JV: Would I say it's a bubble? I-, I wouldn't agree with that. I think it's been around long enough, uh, and it's developing quickly enough, or-, or consistently enough that it'll be around for-, for a while yet. ST: Lots of perspectives there, but the consensus seems to be that London can at least be construed as a bubble. And even if it's not, it's definitely a fintech hub, that seems to draw most of the attention to itself, compared with the rest of the country. If you're a fintech, or a small financial services provider outside the capital, it can be harder to get your name out there and make yourselves heard, especially by those in the capital. There may be some legitimate reasons for that, London is where the biggest fintech news comes from, the biggest funding rounds, and it's where the regulator is based, along with the VCs, the investors, the big banks, the government, and networking opportunities, and much more. It's arguably the fintech capital of the world, and for some, they couldn't have considered setting up their business anywhere else. One such founder is Virraj Jatania, the CEO of Pockit. VJ: Yeah, I definitely wouldn't have started anywhere instead of London. I mean, and, you know, sort of, my experience from my family business, is very much in emerging markets, and we could have easily started in one of those countries, uh, where we have-, have had extensive business experience, but my view was, is that, if you're starting a financial services business, you want to be in London, where you can attract the best talent, you can build operational expertise, in quite-, in quite a complex business, and you have a-, a very friendly and forward-thinking regulator. Whereas if you think about some of the other countries that, you know, we may have thought about, you would have none of those things, and so actually, ever building your business would have probably been quite unlikely. So, you know, we would have-, we would have definitely always started here. I think, if you think about the level of talent, um, that you need, to build a business like what we're building, uh, you need, really, access to the best talent possible, and-, and that tends to be in London, uh, you know, especially if you're bringing in people from, you know, abroad, whether that's the US, or Europe, or other parts of the world, uh, those people want to be in London, London's the hub, that's where everything's happening. The investment, uh, sort of, scene, is also very London-based, so if you-, if you're outside of London, then you tend-, you know, it's very difficult to actually attract the attention that you need, um, so from a business perspective, it's really important for us to be in London. The other thing I'd say is, being a financial services business, the regulatory, uh, environment, you know, you want to be close to that, you want to be close to what's happening at, you know, the FCA, you want to know about the new things that are going on from a regtech perspective, and that, for us, means being in London, because you can be close to the people who are leading those conversations, who are decisionmakers, uh, and so we-, yeah, we very much feel that London's a very-, a very, very important hub for us. ST: Virraj was very firm on that point. For him, London was the only place to base his business. We also spoke to Paul Rippon, who's the Deputy CEO of London fintech darling, Monzo, about why they chose London. PR: So, back in 2015, uh, the-, the co-founders met each other, and we happened to meet each other in London. And, uh, I-, I think, you know, as-, as ever, one thing led to another, and actually, London just happened to be the base where we-, where we met, which I think, in itself, is interesting, isn't it? That-, that-, that people, going about their lives and their business, happen to meet in London, uh, and-, and I think that says a lot for what-, what London is about, and-, and (? 11.49) has to offer. You know, people meet up, people do business, uh, people find, uh, connection, uh, but yeah, that-, that was really the-, the trigger and the start for why Monzo was in London. London is a very exciting place. That-, that said, I've-, I've, in the last few weeks, been to-, been to places like Paris, and-, and Amsterdam, and I think Europe, as a whole, has lots to offer, and I think each city, and each group of people, have-, have something different to-, to offer. That aside, right now, for Monzo, uh, London is a great base, and that's what it is, it's a-, it's a base. Uh. The-, the best part of 20% of our workforce are actually remote workers, and that's remote around the UK, Europe, and the US, as well, so we are not 100% London focused, we-, we have our team, uh, throughout the-, the UK. That-, that aside, London itself has lots to offer, and actually, I think, is-, is the perfect basecamp for Monzo right now. So, the infrastructure is fantastic, you know, you can have a grumble about the-, the Tubes, or whatever, but Tube, buses, automobiles, planes, the-, the network infrastructure hub is really, really good. Equally, access to-, to capital, uh, the-, the opportunity to meet investors, and potential investors, uh, through London, is-, is extremely powerful. And then, thirdly, linked to the transport hub, the-, the access to skills, not only those people actually living in London, but the accessibility, through the transport system, for people to be able to get to London, whether that's around the UK, or indeed, in-, in Europe and beyond. So, for all of those reasons combined, uh, London, uh, is-, is absolutely the right place, or at least it feels the right place, for us to be at the moment. Sometimes, the classification of bubble is easier with the benefit of hindsight. I-, I think if you look at what's going on at the moment in the fintech space, uh, there's lots of excitement, there's lots of energy, there's money being raised, for all sorts of different ventures, whether that's regtech, fintech, insurtech, the list-, the list goes on. And actually, I think that's healthy. ST: Talent and capital keep coming up. It almost goes without saying that the London fintech scene is thriving. We talk about it enough on this podcast, so we're arguably as inside of the bubble as it gets, because we're based in London. London is home to the UK's first fintech unicorn, OakNorth, as well as thousands of startups, two of the UK's biggest consumer challenger banks, Starling and Monzo, and it's the home to the government, the Treasury, the FCA, the Bank of England. But do you need to be based here to enjoy the benefits? And what happens when you burst the London bubble? We want to showcase the under-the-radar successes outside of London. There are so many amazing companies across the UK solving issues for customers, financial inclusion challenges, and generally excelling in their chosen field. But why don't we know about them? Chris Sier has a theory. CS: There's a huge humility in the north, and not just the north, but, you know, Wales, um, Belfast, the southwest, they're kind of slightly shy about their capabilities. Yorkshire's very shy, they're very, sort of, humble, "Oh, I don't want to do that," it's, "Oh, we don't-, we don't want to make a fuss," right? There's a lot of that that goes on, but one of the ways to get them to realise that actually people are paying attention to them is to get some of the-, the foundation blocks of fintech in London to pay attention. ST: So, to make a fuss, we went back through our regional representatives, to tell us more about their success stories outside the London bubble. RT: I mean, Wales has really identified itself as, um, a sort of, centre of excellence, in some of the, sort of, enabling technologies, like data science, AI, cybersecurity, uh, risktech, um, regtech. So, we do have lots of companies in and around us, you know, that are great, sort of, enablers for what we want-, what-, what we need to do, and actually, that continues to, sort of, improve daily, and, uh, it's-, it's interesting, me coming to record this with you today, because, um, it's quite an exciting day for me today, because, um, today, the Chancellor, Philip Hammond, uh, and the, HM Treasury, have, um, announced that they've appointed me as the Wales Fintech Envoy. So I now actually have an official mandate, to go and, sort of, talk about fintech, and, more broadly, why Wales, you know, is a great place for it, and to engage with the companies who are already in Wales, who-, or people who are in Wales, are thinking about fintech, or even companies outside of Wales, who are thinking where they'd like to go to set up. So, I have that mandate, and that mandate also, sort of, extends to, sort of, helping the government determine its own, sort of, strategy around how to use fintech as a sector that can enable, you know, greater success for the UK in the future, you know, particularly post-Brexit. ST: Chris Sier defends the northern fintech scene, showcasing resource, talent, and value for money outside of the capital. He's adamant that London is too expensive for a new startup, and they would be better off starting somewhere outside of London, and then scaling up. CS: Take Leeds. There are 10,000 digital students that graduate every year from Leeds University. You don't have a problem with resource. And when you get resource, it's loyal. So, it's not like London, where you hire someone, and then they're gone in six months, potentially taking a crucial part of what it is that you do away from you. You've got great research capabilities. One of the things that most people don't realise is that mainstream financial services in London looks outside of London for key parts of their insight. So, if-, if you want to do catastrophe modelling, if you want data on catastrophe risk, if you want your models of catastrophe risk, and your reinsurance models to work, you go to Bristol and Exeter, which is where the Met Office supercomputer is, and all of the academics that work on that data. If you want big data analytics, and you want consumer data research, the UK's Consumer Data Research Centre is in Leeds. If you want to deal with an aging population, and you want to understand the kind of financial products and tools that you would offer to somebody who is a pensioner, the Centre for Aging Studies is in Newcastle. If you wanna study, uh, renewable energy, and you want to look at the green economy, and you want to look at that whole, um, marketplace, um, for sustainability, you go to Narec, which is in Newcastle, or you go to Orkney, which is where the Wave and Tidal, uh, testbed is, um, which is where they-, they test all applications and infrastructure supporting the wave and tidal industry. The UK is highly varied. High performance computing? Cardiff. D'you know? [Laughter]. It's mad, right? And no one knows about it, and no one appreciates it. So, let's-, let's frame this from the point of view of, um, a couple of different types of entrepreneur. If you are a-, a sort of an innovator, an entrepreneur that wants to start something, then you look to where you think the money is that's going to fund you, and where you think the opportunities are, to help you with the problems that you're going to solve. But-, but actually, if you're looking for money, why do you need to be in this expensive place? My experience of entrepreneurs over the past 11 years is, there comes a point when they really care about their runway. And the quickest way to burn through your runway, and reach another funding crisis, is to have high operational costs. So, you want to be somewhere cheap, frankly, and if you can get the support that you need, somewhere cheap, then you should do it. London's not cheap, not by any stretch of the imagination. There's one company, called The Flow, that's based in Sheffield, um, that deliberately based himself in Sheffield-, Sheffield, I think his number was, "My overheads are one fifth of what they are in London, and I've hired X number of staff over the past two years, I've never lost one of them, uh, and actually, I only have meetings with my insurer clients, at most once a week, and they're in London, um, the group that are funding me, and trying to get me going, so actually, that's a train ticket to London, and from Sheffield, that's two hours." [Laughter]. Why-, why is it that London seems to be the only place that people talk about? The answer is, I don't know. There is far more opportunity, FAR more, outside of London, and actually, if I was an entrepreneur wanting to build something, I'd go out of London, and then come back in, once I had gone through my build phase, and I had a viable product. Then I'd come to London and sell. Do the hard journey out of London, come back to London when you have something that's viable to sell. ST: James took us through the up-and-coming fintech scene in Scotland, and reinforces the point that the capital can often be too expensive. JV: If you look at the sheer number of fintechs we have in Scotland, it doesn't compare to London, but the pedigree of those that are in Scotland, I think, are fantastic, especially around Open Banking. There's-, there's a lot of companies, proportionally, in Edinburgh, that have been using bank data as a core part of their proposition for-, for years, so, you know, it depends on-, on what you call fintech. If we're-, if we're talking about data, and PFM, or people like us, doing, you know, customer onboarding and affordability, then Edinburgh's actually got a-, a very strong fintech community. And yeah, we were based in Edinburgh when we-, we started up, and over the years, I've been asked, a good few hundred times, "When are you moving to London?" Why wouldn't you base-, be based in-, in Edinburgh or Scotland? You know? It's-, it's got so much going for it, from the schools, to the lifestyle, to the overall small city with a big city atmosphere, that the quality of life in Edinburgh, having lived in London myself, I think is fantastic. And at the same time, it's commutable to London. So, I just go to London every-, every week, you know, and I find that much more of a balance than actually basing the-, the business there, uh, especially as we-, we've moved from startup to growth stage, the team gets bigger, and the office space gets more expensive, and-, and so forth. Actually, having the cost savings of being outside of London is a huge advantage, especially in a city that's financial services driven. I mean, Edinburgh's got a-, a huge pedigree in-, in financial services, we've got five or six banks that base their operations here in Scotland. Getting access to those businesses in London can be challenging, but it's-, it's on our doorstep in Edinburgh. ST: Atom Bank are carving a niche for themselves in the north, and their links to universities are a key factor in finding great regional talent. LW: So, when we set up Atom, we very specifically wanted to set ourselves up in the north of the country. We wanted to bring economic prosperity in to the region. You know, northeast, you know, is not as economically prosperous as other parts of the country, and us being able to play a role in generating economic growth within that region, within this region, was a very important part of the, sort of, founder members' decisions, and a lot of the early investment for Atom, the angel investment in Atom, came from a lot of the northeast investors, as well. So, again, that kind of regional draw of creating something for a region, and creating economic growth within that region, was a real intent of the original founders for Atom. And therefore, putting ourselves way out of The City, um, and the establishment, was a purposeful move, and a statement move for us, so that we could say that, you know, we were being part of a financial ecosystem, and-, and starting to develop a financial ecosystem, that existed outside of London. And I think, you know, within the northeast, you've got some-, you know, you've got some strong financial services businesses, as well, you know, Virgin Money are based up here, you've got Tesco Bank, up in Edinburgh, you've got RBS, you know, you have got established financial services players, from which you can equally create a network, an ecosystem, and tap in to that knowledge and expertise base. So it gave us a base of which we weren't-, we were outside of The City, but actually still had access to the right skills and resources that we needed to grow a new fintech business. The-, the critical thing, when you're setting up a new business, is that you have the right, uh, skills, expertise and talent that you can tap in to, so that you are attracting talent in to your business. So, having that pool of expertise sitting within the region helped us, but equally, we wanted to make sure that we were getting a good spread of skills, not just from financial services, so that we were bringing in new thinking, fresh thinking, in to financial services. Um. The other-, the other element, for us, actually, that's been equally important, um, is having some fantastic universities on our doorstep, and the talent pools and the partnerships that are coming out of those universities. So, we have partnerships with both Durham University and Newcastle University, and we are-, we are running a number of partnership projects with them, which are tapping in to some of the latest thinking, on things like data, artificial intelligence, blockchain. So, being able to also have the university talent, as well as the-, and that access to innovation, through the universities, as well as the regional skills and expertise, was a critical factor for us. So, what you do find is, you know, the best and the brightest, and, you know, those who get really excited by what's going on in London, get drawn to London, um, and some of the, you know, the big names and the big money that go with some of those London roles, and so, being able to keep that talent within the region, and nurture it, and give them great, exciting opportunities, I think it's really important for businesses like Atom, and other fintech and tech businesses, to be creating those exciting opportunities, that are entrepreneurial, and can really excite people, to keep them in the region, once they're, kind of, leaving university, so they're not drawn, uh, you know, to where a lot of the jobs are for-, for graduates, which is down-, down south. ST: It's almost expected that, once you become successful, you'll relocate to London. But your overheads are higher, meaning that rents are higher, and any funding doesn't go as far, day-to-day costs are also steeper, not to mention that the London fintech scene is often dependent on other providers, outside of London itself, who are far less known, such as card processors, or research centres. It isn't a self-sustaining bubble, and its reputation as one is slightly misleading. So, how do we make this better? Consensus from our interviewees seems to tend towards bringing the nation together. Could London reach out, and bring regions closer in? Or could greater funding and PR, dedicated to putting those regional fintechs on the map, be provided? Maybe we could also create tighter partnerships between big, successful fintechs or banks and smaller regional ones. However it happens, our interviewees all agree that less emphasis on London, and more on the UK, as a whole, is the answer. One solution Tech Nation have developed is the Fintech Delivery Panel. GM: The Fintech Delivery Panel was created at the back of 2016, and it's on the back of a mandate by the Treasury, to create a body that would assemble both incumbents, fintech entrepreneurs, and the larger fintech ecosystem, together with Treasury and the regulator, the FCA. And the idea of this group is to both identify and deliver, and it-, it is in its name, Fintech Delivery Panel. So it's not a thinktank. It's a "dotank". One of the working groups of the Fintech Delivery Panel focuses on onboarding standards. These onboarding standards are targeted at fintech companies who want to partner with banks. So, the five largest retail banks in the UK, so that's HSBC, Lloyds, RBS, Santander and Barclays, have actually teamed up, and have actually paid the BSI to help them develop guidelines, to become then standards, to onboard these fintech companies. They have all recognised that, right now, the process is very difficult, it is, uh-, there is a lot of friction, and we want to-, they all want to make sure that these processes-, that these frictions are now removed from, the-, uh, from the process. So, what they have been working on is really to put together a set of guidelines, targeted at fintech companies, that inform those fintech companies what is going to happen when they step in to the doors of any one of those five banks. So, this is something that is first in the world, it's the first time that we see that. It's the leading banks of a country getting together, acknowledging the fact that they want to partner with fintech companies, and yet that this process is too difficult, and has too much friction, and they are doing something about it in a very concrete manner. So, there's been a public consultation that has been going on since June about that, about how do we make this document better, how do we make it friendlier, how do we make it more impactful, and how do we make it in such a way that a lot of institutions are actually applying it? We have opened a public consultation on this document, it's been going live since, uh, the 13th of June, and if you haven't done it already, you can also be part of this consultation. You can go on www.standardsdevelopment.bsigroup.com, and, uh, we'd love to have your input on it. ST: The Fintech Delivery Panel is a new and evolving solution, as banks and fintechs are becoming more familiar with each other, and more inclined to partner with, rather than compete with big banks. Lisa and Chris suggest that improvements in marketing and positioning of UK fintech, not just London, could be the solution. LW: You know, it's not one particular thing that will make a difference, it's having access to resources, it's having access to mentorship, it's having access to investment, and, as well as the fintech programme that Tech Nation are-, are launching, is-, it's fantastic, because they're actively going out and making sure that the people on those programmes are from the regions, as well as from the London-, London, sort of, fintech scene, um, and-, and making sure that they are proactively nurturing that talent that sits outside of London is so, so important, I think. But it is partnerships, and it is the ecosystem that we create, and I think it's-, it's also that access to investment, because I think investment is probably easier to come by in London. It-, it's a bit of a self-fulfilling, um, and self-sustaining ecosystem in London. Out in the regions, that needs to be nurtured more, um, and it needs to be much more proactively championed, I think. CS: I mean, there-, there is a certain amount of marketing. I mean, there's-, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, right? You talk about it enough and it happens, and people believe it. Um. I still am staggered at the-, the extent to which, not just the infrastructure that's self-serving within London, so London-focused marketing organisations, spend their time talking only about London, rather than about the UK. I think that marketing thing is the thing we have to work on. We have to have things like this. Treasury needs to-, to figure out how to be much more structured about using the Envoys. We need to get some London infrastructure outside, and create, um, sort of, hubs outside of London, so it's like-, well, not-, I wouldn't-, I hesitate to say hub and spoke. It's multi-hub. It took while-, a wee while to get going, but we now have this, sort of, uh, community-building organisation called Fintech North, that's-, that's based out of Leeds, but actually, it operates all over the north. So, we've had one event in Leeds, we've got-, we've had-, in the past 12 months, we've had 17 different events around the north of England. Manchester, uh, Leeds, Liverpool, there'll be others. So that's great, it raises the profile, it gives someone-, it gives the opportunity for the local community to coalesce around those events, that's important. ST: One of the main points all of our guests made is changing the perception that the regions of the UK are really spread out, and travelling between them is somehow difficult and inconvenient. We're a tiny country, especially compared to the US or Canada, or even most of Europe. Linking Scotland or Wales to the southwest, and to London, shouldn't be that difficult, and we may moan about our transport links, but they're not that bad. Once we break down these perceived distances, we can hopefully also remove the regional silos in working relationships, too. RT: Britain is a tiny place, you know, think of us compared to the USA, you know, we are microscopic. In the States, they consider the journey from Cardiff to London to be a, sort of, hop on the bus. We-, we, in Britain, because we're small, tend to think of it as a, sort of, you know, moving from one country to another. It's not. So, we've got to be prepared to jump on the bus, and-, and-, and do the travelling necessary to-, to do the job. CS: You've got a lot of big hubs of resource in North London, things like Facebook and Google, right? Now, they're full, it's expensive, it's overflowing, lack of resource. Two-hour train journey? Leeds. Property prices, desk prices, half of what they are in London, unlimited talent. It-, it's quite odd that people don't get it, but you could have an overflow in Leeds, while still supporting a London hub. Well, that makes sense. VJ: The UK is not like the US, where it's such a huge, um, country, in terms of, um, size, so actually, you can be in London, but yet still be in pretty much any city, you know, across the-, the country within, you know, a couple of hours, pretty much. ST: Likewise, Greg proposes that we should use the small size of the country, and the ease of travel, to better look inside the country, before connecting outside, to recruit talent. GM: You know, before going to-, before climbing on a train to Paris, we should probably try and see if we should take, you know, a Virgin train to, uh, Manchester or Leeds, um, and I think that London is probably a bit guilty of that, is looking directly at the continent, rather than, you know, up north. And I think we're not the only one to have understood the importance of the regions, and the fact that they're maturing in to, um, great hubs, uh, on their own. If you look at-, at the Treasury's fintech strategy, it also comports a section around nominating new Fintech Envoys for the region, whose role is going to be very much to champion their own region, but also make sure that the adoption of fintech in general, um, is greater and greater. ST: But, most of all, what all the travelling and marketing, and the Fintech Envoys, are aiming to do, is to highlight the UK fintech scene as a whole. Not just London, or any regional bubbles, as silos. And it seems that the UK isn't as siloed by region as it appears. We should not make it seem so. RT: The Welsh government are, sort of, interested in whether we have a particular kind of specialisation somewhere under the fintech umbrella, and there-, there is absolutely evidence of that. But I think that-, that fintech has so much potential, that I don't particularly want to see it, sort of-, I don't want to see Wales, or any other region, for any-, particularly, sort of, box it up. JV: So, the UK, to position itself as a fintech leader, can't just rely on the strength of London. You know, those days, I think, are numbered. That bubble has gone, right? That, sort of, early adopter, sort of, uh, you know, focal point of London. Now, what I believe the UK needs to do, is leverage the strength of the nation, if you would, right, leverage the strength of the country, to maintain that-, that pole position in fintech. And if we could, it's a pretty big country, and there's a huge amount of expertise, when you look at Manchester and Cardiff, and price comparison, or Leeds and data, you know, I talked a little bit about Scotland. There's a lot of effort and resource being put in to these-, these regional areas. If we could group up that, in some way, I think we have a much better chance to-, to maintain that position. ST: With those final parting words from James Varga, the London fintech bubble is burst. We want to take a look at the UK as a fintech hotspot for the rest of the world. Why do companies move to the UK? What do we offer that's so attractive? And can we maintain our crown, as we move in to a post-Brexit world? Stay tuned for next week, as we aim to find out. This episode was hosted by me, Simon Taylor, written by Laura Watkins, produced by Ollie Judge and Petrit Berisha, and edited by Michael Bailey. Thanks to Greg Michel at Tech Nation, and all of the Tech Nation team, Lisa Wood from Atom, Paul Rippon at Monzo, Chris Sier, Fintech Envoy for the North, Richard Theo, Fintech Envoy for Wales, Virraj Jatania, CEO and Founder of Pockit, and James Varga, CEO and Co-Founder of The ID Co. 11FS transform businesses, and, frankly, get shit done. To find out what we can do for you, email hello@11FS.com, and if we hooked you with this episode, be sure to subscribe on Apple Podcasts, or your favourite podcast client, and follow us on Twitter, Facebook and YouTube, for more exclusive content. Thanks for listening, and goodbye. END OF AUDIO 00:38:10 END OF TRANSCRIPT